Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

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Rcnewcomb
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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by Rcnewcomb »

A lot depends on the 3rd party nesting software.
With some packages you would:
  • export your vectors from your design program
  • import into the nesting software
  • nest
  • export the nested vectors from the nesting software
  • import into the design program
  • create & save toolpaths
With other 3rd party nesting packages they would handle the toolpath creation as well, so there would be no need to reimport into the design program.

As was mentioned earlier in this thread, Vectric licenses a nesting library from a 3rd party. They opted for a package that was easy to use and affordable. Some nesting packages cost more than any of the Vectric products, but if you are machining parts out of very expensive material, or need to reduce cut times to an absolute minimum then it may be worth the extra expense.
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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by adze_cnc »

Selection of options within the nesting screen can also affect things.
  • Sometimes choosing to nest along X is better than along Y (or vice versa).
  • Setting a border gap to 0 can often produce a result which when you center the resulting vectors in the material gives similar if not better border gaps.
  • Changing the Clearance slightly can also affect things is there are multiple objects in one axis (e.g. changing from 0.075 to 0.065).

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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by mpoole32 »

@thomas_L I use Sketchup with the Cabmaker plugin to do design in SketchUp and then use the plugin companion program CutMaster to create machining dxf geometry. CutMaster does nested optimization including writing out optimized panel dxfs. I had a gadget written that handles sheet sizing and the orderly import of sheet dxfs into Vcarve.


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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by Thomas_L »

mpoole32 wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2024 10:23 pm
@thomas_L I use Sketchup with the Cabmaker plugin to do design in SketchUp and then use the plugin companion program CutMaster to create machining dxf geometry. CutMaster does nested optimization including writing out optimized panel dxfs. I had a gadget written that handles sheet sizing and the orderly import of sheet dxfs into Vcarve.

Thanks for your reply: it seems a great software but I`m already set up with cabinet sense. Meaning it`s not worth changing my system just for the nesting. Thanks anyways. sorry for my late reply

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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by Rcnewcomb »

There is an open source nesting program (free) that might be worth looking into: DeepNest
It is particularly suited for laser work, but should work with router CNC as well.

From their web page:
Automatic line merging
Deepnest packs your parts into a compact area to save material and time. It automatically merges common lines so the laser doesn't cut the same path twice.

This not only saves time but improves part quality by avoiding heat warping from multiple laser passes.

A robust nesting engine
Deepnest employs a state of the art part layout engine with part-in-part placement and the ability to nest bitmap images for laser engraving
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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by TReischl »

Rcnewcomb wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:14 pm
There is an open source nesting program (free) that might be worth looking into: DeepNest
It is particularly suited for laser work, but should work with router CNC as well.
That is definitely a decent nesting engine. I have been using it for my laser work since the other software does not include nesting and it sure is handy on a laser. It will accept SVG, CDR and DXF file types. It is smart enough to separate parts that are in the same file. The only odd thing I have noticed is that there does not seem to be a "do NOT put parts in parts" option. Weird.

Randall, I did not see anything on the website or in the program that allows bitmaps to be imported? Ok, I see it on the website, but darned if I can find it in the program!
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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by TReischl »

Thomas_L wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:07 pm
....
Been playing around with the DeepNest stuff, from what I can see it should work for your needs. Heck, it is free, so you can give it a try and if it not for you, no loss.
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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by Thomas_L »

TReischl wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2024 7:25 pm
Rcnewcomb wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:14 pm
There is an open source nesting program (free) that might be worth looking into: DeepNest
It is particularly suited for laser work, but should work with router CNC as well.
That is definitely a decent nesting engine. I have been using it for my laser work since the other software does not include nesting and it sure is handy on a laser. It will accept SVG, CDR and DXF file types. It is smart enough to separate parts that are in the same file. The only odd thing I have noticed is that there does not seem to be a "do NOT put parts in parts" option. Weird.

Randall, I did not see anything on the website or in the program that allows bitmaps to be imported? Ok, I see it on the website, but darned if I can find it in the program!
Great I will check it out

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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by Thomas_L »

Hi everyone.

Having found no real solution to this problem jet.
I was wondering if there are any improvements on the Vitric version 12 regarding the nesting?
I still think that the nesting needs to be improved and with all the new AI feature's on the market I was hoping to see something to improve on this topic. Especially for cabinet making.
It could be great to have a nest where I don`t need to rearrange the parts after each time.

And for the once working with a vacuum hold down. It would be also great to have a function to keep all small parts in the center of the sheet rather on the edges for better holding.

Let me know what you think about this

Regards
Thomas

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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by Rcnewcomb »

Make sure to send your suggestions to
support@vectric.com
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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by TReischl »

Thomas_L wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2025 6:00 pm
....
I was wondering if there are any improvements on the Vitric version 12 regarding the nesting?
I still think that the nesting needs to be improved and with all the new AI feature's on the market I was hoping to see something to improve on this topic..
.....
It would be also great to have a function to keep all small parts in the center of the sheet rather on the edges for better holding.
.....
Regards
Thomas
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is EXTREMELY doubtful that Vectric creates the nesting engine. It is a very specialized area in software engineering. This stuff has been around for DECADES. I used my first nesting engine from Sigma in 1990. Geometric in 1997. With that many years of development having passed by, it is HIGHLY doubtful there are any really significant improvements. I would be looking for on line nesting engines at this stage for improvements. Nesting is not really an AI problem. How to get the best result is already known, the issue is available computing power.

It is so easy to say "it would be great to have a function. . . .". A function? That is way beyond a mere function. That would add another HUGE level of complexity to an already hugely complex task.

I am not trying to troll or dis you here. Of all the things involved in CNC programming, writing code for nesting is one of the most challenging. Right after that is producing the shortest path between all features on parts. AKA "The traveling salesman problem". BTW, the TSP has improved immensely because of the computing power available via the internet. This is a classic example of "all we need is a function. . ." But the problem is not as simple as it first appears, check out Wikipedia on the TSP. Reading it can make one's brain turn to mush.
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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by Thomas_L »

Thanks for your reply

I do understand your point in the difficulty achieving a better nesting function.
As it appears you are quite an expert on nesting software's.
Would you say that vectrics nesting has room for improvement ?
What online nesting are you referring to?
Is there something you can recommend?

Regards
Thomas

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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by TReischl »

Thomas_L wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2025 7:39 pm
Thanks for your reply

I do understand your point in the difficulty achieving a better nesting function.
As it appears you are quite an expert on nesting software's.

I am not an expert on nesting software. Far from it. I wrote CAM software that used nesting libraries provided by a 3rd party. That is pretty much what all CAM software companies that I am aware of do. Obviously I have looked at every CAM package with nesting that exists.

Would you say that vectrics nesting has room for improvement ?

Nope. Where the improvement needs to occur is in computing speed. As I mentioned in an earlier post, all the engines either run a fixed number of iterations, or a fixed amount of time. NONE of them run until they get the best possible solution. BTW, it is not "vectrics nesting". They use a nesting engine that is written by a third party. Vectric provides a "front end" to access that engine. From what I can discern, they use one of the best engines on the market. I think it is the same one I used. Could be wrong there.

What online nesting are you referring to?

Is there something you can recommend?

Like all things internet based, changes happen fast since there is no "distribution" cycle required. There are quite a few, if I were you, I would sit down with a laptop in the evening, a set of sample part files and give them a go to see what you get. No way of telling what they actually do by reading some marketing person's hype.

Regards
Thomas
My hunch is that you are not going to find anything to completely address your needs/wants. Like all things, nesting libraries are designed to appeal to the widest market. Cabinet making is a subset of a very large market that requires nesting for true shapes. You require nesting for rectangles basically. Unfortunately, the true shape nesting algorithms do not handle rectangles as a special shape. At least they didn't the last I worked with them. I am not tuned to the cabinet makers requirements, but I wonder if there aren't cabinet making software programs that address these needs? Maybe one of our cabinet guys can chime in with some sage advice. . . .
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns

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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by Thomas_L »

Ok thank you I think I understand now a bit better.

I wouldn`t mind to wait a bit longer for the nesting to be done. Because as of now I spend mostly 10-20min on each job rearranging some parts (by around 20sheets per job). And most of the time I`m able to save a sheet.
But if running the optimization a few minutes longer could save me this. I certainly wouldn`t mind

I just had a look at this OptiNest .Which is a nesting software capable of exporting the finished nesting to vcarve.
It looks great. Although it comes with the according price tag.

Thanks
Thomas

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Re: Nesting!! Can we do something about it?

Post by adze_cnc »

Thomas_L wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:22 pm
As to 90% of my jobs which are usually in the size from 15-40 sheet.
And with a limited amount of time and iterations by the software that makes nesting "inefficient".

When nesting these huge jobs are you trying to get the program to handle all parts at once? Perhaps you can help the software by nesting sub-sets that you (with human's superior pattern matching) triage into batches that stand a better chance of succeeding.

I'm not sure whether we ever did get to see an example (fresh from initial nesting) that was bad and needed fixing.

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