About Copyrighted Material
- TReischl
- Vectric Wizard
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About Copyrighted Material
I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV, or on this forum. However, I have copyrighted material in the past and am somewhat familiar with the subject.
Copyright essentially revolves around something called "prior art". In a nutshell, that means you need to be able to demonstrate that no one has designed something very similar to what you have prior to your claim of copyright. Ok, so what does that mean?
I sit down and draw up a six petaled flower. I cannot copyright it, somewhere, someone has drawn a six petaled flower that probably looks like mine, and it was probably done hundreds of years ago. I add 3 bees to the flower picture, I cannot copyright the bees either. I then add a woodland scene to the background. That will not get copyrighted either. But, if the composition of all those elements is unique, I can copyright the whole thing. Everyone else can use the bees, the trees and flowers, but they had better not use them the same way I did.
Think of it this way. Someone writes a book, they use all the same words everyone else does, they cannot copyright the words, but they can copyright how those words are assembled. Simple enough.
Now it gets a bit interesting. The duration of a copyright has some variables and you need to look those up. Suffice it to say, that if something is around a hundred years old, the copyright has expired and you are free to use the item.
So, you are looking at a book full of patterns, you would like to use them on something you will be selling, and whoops, you get all tangled up thinking about copyright laws, etc. Think of this, especially in relation to vcarving, a lot of the patterns we see and like date from antiquity, an author is free to include those patterns in his book. Does that mean he has a copyright on the pattern? NO, what he has a copyright on is his book, so that you do not copy it.
Still worried? Someone on this forum recently posted a picture of a box he had made using patterns from Wayne Barton's excellent book on chip carving. Someone else asked if he would sell the pattern. I doubt if Wayne Barton would go along with that idea, because the purpose behind his book is to sell the book which contains patterns.
But what about making the objects he has used in his books and selling them? I would contact Wayne Barton and ask him. If I did not like the answer, I would contact an attorney for an opinion. Even if the attorney said it was ok, I might not make the item just to avoid hard feelings, etc.
(an aside, I just spoke on the phone to Wayne Barton, to answer the question about making a box using his original patterns, he says that arrangements can be made with him and his publisher to use these patterns.)
Just so everyone knows, you can copyright anything you want, just cause you copyrighted it, does not mean it will pass muster in a court of law.
A little common sense here goes a long way. If you ask yourself the questions: If I do this, will it be infringing on the business of the person who designed it? (In the case of Wayne Barton above, his business is selling his books with patterns and teaching classes) The second question is: "Is this design in the book an actual original piece of artwork or is just a rehash of something that has been done for hundreds of years?"
When in doubt, contact the author!
I hope this helps everyone out!
Copyright essentially revolves around something called "prior art". In a nutshell, that means you need to be able to demonstrate that no one has designed something very similar to what you have prior to your claim of copyright. Ok, so what does that mean?
I sit down and draw up a six petaled flower. I cannot copyright it, somewhere, someone has drawn a six petaled flower that probably looks like mine, and it was probably done hundreds of years ago. I add 3 bees to the flower picture, I cannot copyright the bees either. I then add a woodland scene to the background. That will not get copyrighted either. But, if the composition of all those elements is unique, I can copyright the whole thing. Everyone else can use the bees, the trees and flowers, but they had better not use them the same way I did.
Think of it this way. Someone writes a book, they use all the same words everyone else does, they cannot copyright the words, but they can copyright how those words are assembled. Simple enough.
Now it gets a bit interesting. The duration of a copyright has some variables and you need to look those up. Suffice it to say, that if something is around a hundred years old, the copyright has expired and you are free to use the item.
So, you are looking at a book full of patterns, you would like to use them on something you will be selling, and whoops, you get all tangled up thinking about copyright laws, etc. Think of this, especially in relation to vcarving, a lot of the patterns we see and like date from antiquity, an author is free to include those patterns in his book. Does that mean he has a copyright on the pattern? NO, what he has a copyright on is his book, so that you do not copy it.
Still worried? Someone on this forum recently posted a picture of a box he had made using patterns from Wayne Barton's excellent book on chip carving. Someone else asked if he would sell the pattern. I doubt if Wayne Barton would go along with that idea, because the purpose behind his book is to sell the book which contains patterns.
But what about making the objects he has used in his books and selling them? I would contact Wayne Barton and ask him. If I did not like the answer, I would contact an attorney for an opinion. Even if the attorney said it was ok, I might not make the item just to avoid hard feelings, etc.
(an aside, I just spoke on the phone to Wayne Barton, to answer the question about making a box using his original patterns, he says that arrangements can be made with him and his publisher to use these patterns.)
Just so everyone knows, you can copyright anything you want, just cause you copyrighted it, does not mean it will pass muster in a court of law.
A little common sense here goes a long way. If you ask yourself the questions: If I do this, will it be infringing on the business of the person who designed it? (In the case of Wayne Barton above, his business is selling his books with patterns and teaching classes) The second question is: "Is this design in the book an actual original piece of artwork or is just a rehash of something that has been done for hundreds of years?"
When in doubt, contact the author!
I hope this helps everyone out!
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns
Hello, I live in italy, copyright for products not sold there.
The problem is for people who copy produced with copyright and put them up for sale.
Moreover, I think that the copyright must be equal in all, a small difference does not mean that you have violated the law.
Similar but not the same is not infringing copyright.
I think that is so, I am not un'avvocato.
We all take ideas from watching other jobs or from the web but are never identical.
translate google
The problem is for people who copy produced with copyright and put them up for sale.
Moreover, I think that the copyright must be equal in all, a small difference does not mean that you have violated the law.
Similar but not the same is not infringing copyright.
I think that is so, I am not un'avvocato.
We all take ideas from watching other jobs or from the web but are never identical.
translate google
- DavidCousins
- Vectric Wizard
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I'm curious about the pictures of famous people issue too. Not just Elvis but NASCAR drivers, their cars, and a very wide range of celebrities.
Also, does anyone know who to contact to get permission to use copyrighted logos for pro sports such as the NFL or MLB? I know the answer is obvious - "Contact NFL or MLB". However, I've looked on their websites and I haven't been able to find contact information.
Also, does anyone know who to contact to get permission to use copyrighted logos for pro sports such as the NFL or MLB? I know the answer is obvious - "Contact NFL or MLB". However, I've looked on their websites and I haven't been able to find contact information.
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- Vectric Wizard
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before i got vcarve
i made a template of the harley davidson logo, made some tables to give to the local harley shops, (really cool advertising) well it got back to hd in wisconsin and i got a letter informing me of trademark infringement rights, seemed it was ok to give them away though!! here in south carolina just 90 miles south of the charlotte speedway you can bet the watch the nascar stuff!!! jim mcgrew
Use of Copyrirghted/Trademarked Material
Here's a couple of things I've learned through the years...
College (NCAA), NFL, and MBL logos are registered trademarks. To use them on products you sell you must buy a license from the organization. In the case of colleges, sometimes it the college, other times it's a different entity, e.g. Big Ten. I assume NASCAR is the same. For the NFL, see the NFL Info website
I was asked to make a sign once for a customer's RV that incorporated Mickey Mouse. My design for the sign, but I just put Mickey in there. I wrote to Disney for permission for this one-time use and got a prompt reply. ABSOLUTELY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. They weren't even polite about it.
Some of the books I've purchased that have plans in them state specifically what you are allowed to do with regard to selling what you made from there plans. For example, you may sell two hundred of the item, but beyond that, you must contact the publisher/author. So look for some fine print in the pattern/plan book you've purchased.
My two cents.
Dave
College (NCAA), NFL, and MBL logos are registered trademarks. To use them on products you sell you must buy a license from the organization. In the case of colleges, sometimes it the college, other times it's a different entity, e.g. Big Ten. I assume NASCAR is the same. For the NFL, see the NFL Info website
I was asked to make a sign once for a customer's RV that incorporated Mickey Mouse. My design for the sign, but I just put Mickey in there. I wrote to Disney for permission for this one-time use and got a prompt reply. ABSOLUTELY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. They weren't even polite about it.
Some of the books I've purchased that have plans in them state specifically what you are allowed to do with regard to selling what you made from there plans. For example, you may sell two hundred of the item, but beyond that, you must contact the publisher/author. So look for some fine print in the pattern/plan book you've purchased.
My two cents.
Dave
- TReischl
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Sorry, I have been out of town for most of this week, the moving thing and all.
About photos of famous people, or things like pictures of race cars. Typically, the photographer or the company he works for holds the copyright. In other words, you can go down to the track, take a picture of the car or celebrity and do what you will with it. That is why the paparazzi chase everyone around, a celebrity's face is not copyrighted, but a picture of it probably is.
Some other things I know for a fact. Walt Disney will most definitely get you for violating their copyrights. One of the laser companies had some install techs handing out a program that cut an image of Mickey flipping the bird. The Disney attorneys saw to it that every company was visited by a technician and that program removed, at the laser companies expense.
Harley Davidson is the same way, I actually know a Harley Davidson "shopper", she browses through stores looking for things with HD on them. . . she gets a reward for every illegal one she finds.
Frankly, I stay away from anything that looks like it is probably copyrighted. And not just from fear of being dragged into court, I think a person who takes the time to create a work of art, an original logo, a picture should have the right to earn money for their efforts. Standing around waiting for some poo bah to make an appearance and then getting a really good picture is not easy. Coming up with an original design is also work, just try it sometime.
So, if you really like the HD logo, and get a big bang out of Mickey Mouse stuff, etc. Go ahead, make something for your own personal use and enjoy it. HD and Disney are not going to come inspect your home. But I sure as heck would not try selling anything like that.
About photos of famous people, or things like pictures of race cars. Typically, the photographer or the company he works for holds the copyright. In other words, you can go down to the track, take a picture of the car or celebrity and do what you will with it. That is why the paparazzi chase everyone around, a celebrity's face is not copyrighted, but a picture of it probably is.
Some other things I know for a fact. Walt Disney will most definitely get you for violating their copyrights. One of the laser companies had some install techs handing out a program that cut an image of Mickey flipping the bird. The Disney attorneys saw to it that every company was visited by a technician and that program removed, at the laser companies expense.
Harley Davidson is the same way, I actually know a Harley Davidson "shopper", she browses through stores looking for things with HD on them. . . she gets a reward for every illegal one she finds.
Frankly, I stay away from anything that looks like it is probably copyrighted. And not just from fear of being dragged into court, I think a person who takes the time to create a work of art, an original logo, a picture should have the right to earn money for their efforts. Standing around waiting for some poo bah to make an appearance and then getting a really good picture is not easy. Coming up with an original design is also work, just try it sometime.
So, if you really like the HD logo, and get a big bang out of Mickey Mouse stuff, etc. Go ahead, make something for your own personal use and enjoy it. HD and Disney are not going to come inspect your home. But I sure as heck would not try selling anything like that.
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns
I don't think there is any question regarding items that are trademarked; team logos, cartoon characters such as Mickey Mouse, corporate logos such as Harley Davidson.
What is unclear to me, and I believe to many of us, is items that are not trademarked and not copyrighted. A copyright must be registered. I don't think that every photograph or artists' rendering(we could be considered artists in this context) of a celebrity has copyright status.
I have no doubt that NASCAR logos are trademarked and would require NASCAR permission to reproduce. However I don't think that my representation of a NASCAR driver and or his car would require permission. My big question is "AM I Correct"?
What is unclear to me, and I believe to many of us, is items that are not trademarked and not copyrighted. A copyright must be registered. I don't think that every photograph or artists' rendering(we could be considered artists in this context) of a celebrity has copyright status.
I have no doubt that NASCAR logos are trademarked and would require NASCAR permission to reproduce. However I don't think that my representation of a NASCAR driver and or his car would require permission. My big question is "AM I Correct"?
On the Shopbot forum there is a discussion ongoing regarding copyright. I haven't had time to read the link to Copyright Office Basics yet but the answer is probably here. http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html
I wanted to pass the link on for others who are interested to read as well.
The second link http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm is to the US Patent and Trademarks Office.
I wanted to pass the link on for others who are interested to read as well.
The second link http://www.uspto.gov/main/trademarks.htm is to the US Patent and Trademarks Office.
- TReischl
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Just to make things real clear, a copyright does not have to be "registered". Nor does a notice have to appear on the item. This is where the "prior art" stuff comes into play. All the "artist" has to do is demonstrate that it was created before any other similar item, this can be as simple as making a note on the original object, etc. It does not have to be filed anywhere.
For instance, you create a design, you date it. Then you cut it and start selling it. Because you were smart, you had someone witness the date you created it and document it (put it in a drawer). Some jamoke decides to rip off your design (remember, your design is carved and writing stuff like Copyright 2008 on it will ruin the appearance, so no notice appears on the object) and starts cutting your artwork. You get your attorney, the pictures you took of the day you created the artwork, the original designs and your friends witness signature, and you slowly broil the jamoke to a nice burn piece of toast.
Copyrights are not like Patents, way different things. So there is no rushing to the copyright office with time stamped documents to beat out your competitor. You CAN have an attorney file the copyright for you, it makes it a bit easier if you decide to grill someone in court, because that attorney is actually your documentation.
Really, if you are dealing with this stuff, you should do some reading up on the internet and even maybe take a look at a book on the subject.
It is one of those classic things that is really simple, but since attorneys get involved, they make you believe that it is way too complicated for the average person, hence you should pay them some money for their vast knowledge of a rather simple subject.
For instance, you create a design, you date it. Then you cut it and start selling it. Because you were smart, you had someone witness the date you created it and document it (put it in a drawer). Some jamoke decides to rip off your design (remember, your design is carved and writing stuff like Copyright 2008 on it will ruin the appearance, so no notice appears on the object) and starts cutting your artwork. You get your attorney, the pictures you took of the day you created the artwork, the original designs and your friends witness signature, and you slowly broil the jamoke to a nice burn piece of toast.
Copyrights are not like Patents, way different things. So there is no rushing to the copyright office with time stamped documents to beat out your competitor. You CAN have an attorney file the copyright for you, it makes it a bit easier if you decide to grill someone in court, because that attorney is actually your documentation.
Really, if you are dealing with this stuff, you should do some reading up on the internet and even maybe take a look at a book on the subject.
It is one of those classic things that is really simple, but since attorneys get involved, they make you believe that it is way too complicated for the average person, hence you should pay them some money for their vast knowledge of a rather simple subject.
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns
- TReischl
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Phil, you need to look at a section that discusses "fair use" and "public domain". The fair use thing is what allows photographers to take a picture at the race track and then publish it in a newspaper without having to pay a royalty.
I am not sure if what you want to do would be considered the same thing. Your best bet is to spend some time researching it, and then if it is still unclear, talk to an attorney. I personally would not ask Nascar about it. They may just tell you no because that particular person may not know themself.
I am not sure if what you want to do would be considered the same thing. Your best bet is to spend some time researching it, and then if it is still unclear, talk to an attorney. I personally would not ask Nascar about it. They may just tell you no because that particular person may not know themself.
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns
- HoustonFirefox
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All of this talk about photography, copyrights and trademarks brings up an interesting point.
If I go to a Nascar track and take a photo of a driver and his car then that photo can be copyrighted by me right?
If that is the case then I also assume any works derived from it can also be copyrighted by me right? (Image a paper-traced image of the photo and driver).
If I then VCarve that traced artwork then it a derivative of the photo that I own the copyright to so this should be okay right?
If I then sell those V-Carvings then it's based on my work, not that of the Nascar Driver. Sounds like it's getting sticky now.
Could I take a photo of a Mickey Mouse at Disney and then do the same thing since the VCarve is based off of the photo I took?
Just some food for thought (and to stir things up a bit)
If I go to a Nascar track and take a photo of a driver and his car then that photo can be copyrighted by me right?
If that is the case then I also assume any works derived from it can also be copyrighted by me right? (Image a paper-traced image of the photo and driver).
If I then VCarve that traced artwork then it a derivative of the photo that I own the copyright to so this should be okay right?
If I then sell those V-Carvings then it's based on my work, not that of the Nascar Driver. Sounds like it's getting sticky now.
Could I take a photo of a Mickey Mouse at Disney and then do the same thing since the VCarve is based off of the photo I took?
Just some food for thought (and to stir things up a bit)
CNC Woodworkers do it with a 3D Touch Probe!
- doglaw
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This is a real sticky subject and I apologize in advance for my soapbox. This year I have entered into my tenth year of continuted litigation, defending myself against big corporation. Right now I am waiting yet again on my 3rd appeal to the state supreme court. Over these past ten years, I have become very cynical when it comes to the law and the courts and I hope I can offer someone a slightly different perspective.
Here's the real problem. When you're up against large corporations, whether you are technically and legally correct, doesn't really matter unless you have the hundreds of thousands of dollars that you will need to defend yourself in court. Large corporations have virtually unlimited legal and financial resources and if they don't have the law on their side, then they delay, postpone, and find every concievable loop hole that the law provides to make you spend an excess of time, money, and energy. I have also learned not to have much confidence in our courts. Judges have way too much discretion ... and bias.
I have been told many times, that Courts don't provide justice. At best, all you can hope for is a shot at justice. Take it from someone who has learned the hard way, unless you stand to make a ton of money from the use of a design, it simply is just not worth the fight.
Here's the real problem. When you're up against large corporations, whether you are technically and legally correct, doesn't really matter unless you have the hundreds of thousands of dollars that you will need to defend yourself in court. Large corporations have virtually unlimited legal and financial resources and if they don't have the law on their side, then they delay, postpone, and find every concievable loop hole that the law provides to make you spend an excess of time, money, and energy. I have also learned not to have much confidence in our courts. Judges have way too much discretion ... and bias.
I have been told many times, that Courts don't provide justice. At best, all you can hope for is a shot at justice. Take it from someone who has learned the hard way, unless you stand to make a ton of money from the use of a design, it simply is just not worth the fight.