Question about layers and sheets

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relayerbob
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Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

I have a project that I have several sheets designed in, for various components and options. All is fine, except that now I have all the layers from all of the different sheets in a pile in the layers tab, so I think I am missing something. Is there a way to see just the layers for a particular sheet show up with that sheet, and not have all layers visible on all sheets? (I don't mean visible on the design itself, but llisted in the layers tab, I know how to turn layers on and off).

Thanks!

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by martindg »

Unfortunately, there is no current way to associate individual layers with particular sheets. I would love to see a new organizational scheme for layers and sheets. It can get very confusing for projects with multiple sheets.

relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Hmm, OK, thanks. Yes, it gets very messy, Guess I'll have to spand some and redo the naming conventions to make it more clear, but that really is a bit silly. Even a folder structure would be nice, although just associating the ones with a sheet would make the most sense. How do we send this in as a request? Does Ventric read these forums?

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Adrian »

How are you going to set the toolpaths up if you have different layers for different sheets?

The idea is that you have layers that link to toolpaths and then you have multiple sheets from those two. If you have a widget that has five layers and three toolpaths associated with it and that nests to 30 or so sheets (something I do often) then breaking the layers down another layer from that would be a nightmare.

I can see that if you're designing a job with sheets non-nest with every sheet having something unique on it you could possibly want another level of abstraction but all you have to do is to add the sheet name to the layer surely?

I guess I'm missing something which isn't unusual. ;)

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Tex_Lawrence »

Hopefully, following on with what Adrian is saying, one has to remember/think that the objective is to get gcode to a machine. Start at the end of the process and work/think to the beginning to develop the workflow for a particular project.

It is really easy to get into a "database organizational think" and work into a corner unnecessarily. Selecting a sheet will select the toolpaths for that sheet. The toolpaths (hopefully one is automatically associating layers with toolpaths) will select the layers associated with each toolpath.

The situation one faces is a list of layers associated with objects, and not knowing which layer goes with which toolpath. That would normally/easily be handled when creating the objects and developing the toolpath by making that layer the default layer, and remembering that a layer can be associated with as many objects as one sees fit. (If one right-clicks on a layer in the list, there is an option to select all objects on that layer.)

At one time I thought about naming layers with a pointer to a toolpath, but that doesn't really work because you will always want multiple toolpaths working on the same selected objects/layers. This is where the "database organizational think" can get one going down a rabbit hole with a lot of time wasted.
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Leo »

Adrian wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:47 am

The idea is that you have layers that link to toolpaths and then you have multiple sheets from those two.
Hmmmmm - I never thought about that. GREAT IDEA !!

I use sheets a lot and I use toolpath template a lot.

Linking the toolpaths to layers is a GREAT way to do that association

Adrian - I don't think you miss much, it amazes me the way you understand posters.
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by adze_cnc »

Without knowing your naming convention for these multiple layers specific to sheets its difficult to provide suggestions. But…

If you’re naming them like this for 20 sheets:
  • s1 - .25dia holes
  • s2 - .25dia holes
  • ...
  • s20 - .25dia holes
You might rethink that. Just have one layer: .25dia holes and put all the 1/4” holes there when adding them to a sheet. When creatng a toolpath on a select sheet associating a layer with that toolpath Aspire will only use the holes on that sheet in the .25dia holes layer. Similar elimination of redundant layers mean fewer layers to deal with.

I recently did an 8 heet job that had threes layers: holes ; borders inner ; borders outer. borders inner was only there because specific things needed to be done to it otherwise there would have been two layers.

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Phil »

Interesting, maybe Vectric support can create a helpful video.

Phil

relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Adrian wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:47 am
How are you going to set the toolpaths up if you have different layers for different sheets?

The idea is that you have layers that link to toolpaths and then you have multiple sheets from those two. If you have a widget that has five layers and three toolpaths associated with it and that nests to 30 or so sheets (something I do often) then breaking the layers down another layer from that would be a nightmare.

I can see that if you're designing a job with sheets non-nest with every sheet having something unique on it you could possibly want another level of abstraction but all you have to do is to add the sheet name to the layer surely?

I guess I'm missing something which isn't unusual. ;)
Yes, every sheet is unique, in fact, many of the parts aren't even common. Since I am using this for guitars, I have body sheets with some unique and some shared properties, necks that have little in common with one another (and nothing at all with the bodies, other than they are options for the interconnect to the body), pickguards that vary depending on pickup and electronics style and so on. I have toolpaths built for each sheet, as the sheets represent different items and different options, so, with the exception of overall shape and maybe a couple of other items, there are really not many

I don't really get what you mean by this "The idea is that you have layers that link to toolpaths and then you have multiple sheets from those two." I'm not really sure of the point to that, especailly when you can't copy toolpaths between sheets? I also don't understand your point about "nesting"? That is pretty much the opposite to how I think about these. I seem to be missing something with that.

I have currently about 8 sheets and each carries from 5 to 10 or more layers, two sided, so having all the layers in one heap results in 50 or more layers displayed, most of which have nothing to do with one another. Yes, I can, and am, naming them to keep some track, but it would be far easier, and much more standardized in the world of computers, to allow folders (or groups as in case of the toolpaths) or better yet, just show the layers associated with a particular sheet. If the layer is common to more than one sheet, then show it in both.

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

adze_cnc wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:55 pm
Without knowing your naming convention for these multiple layers specific to sheets its difficult to provide suggestions. But…

If you’re naming them like this for 20 sheets:
  • s1 - .25dia holes
  • s2 - .25dia holes
  • ...
  • s20 - .25dia holes
You might rethink that. Just have one layer: .25dia holes and put all the 1/4” holes there when adding them to a sheet. When creatng a toolpath on a select sheet associating a layer with that toolpath Aspire will only use the holes on that sheet in the .25dia holes layer. Similar elimination of redundant layers mean fewer layers to deal with.

I recently did an 8 heet job that had threes layers: holes ; borders inner ; borders outer. borders inner was only there because specific things needed to be done to it otherwise there would have been two layers.
Each sheet is a different part, for example, Guitar Body ; Neck varation 1; Neck Variation 2, etc. I keep different details of each part on each layer, so, pickup cutouts in one layer, electronics cutouts in another layer, bridge options each in their own layer. I don't really have "holes", and breaking sheets down by tool type would be a nightmare for my application, it's way too complex for that. Each part uses multiple tools for widely differing reasons.

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Tex_Lawrence wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:01 pm
Hopefully, following on with what Adrian is saying, one has to remember/think that the objective is to get gcode to a machine. Start at the end of the process and work/think to the beginning to develop the workflow for a particular project.

It is really easy to get into a "database organizational think" and work into a corner unnecessarily. Selecting a sheet will select the toolpaths for that sheet. The toolpaths (hopefully one is automatically associating layers with toolpaths) will select the layers associated with each toolpath.

The situation one faces is a list of layers associated with objects, and not knowing which layer goes with which toolpath. That would normally/easily be handled when creating the objects and developing the toolpath by making that layer the default layer, and remembering that a layer can be associated with as many objects as one sees fit. (If one right-clicks on a layer in the list, there is an option to select all objects on that layer.)

At one time I thought about naming layers with a pointer to a toolpath, but that doesn't really work because you will always want multiple toolpaths working on the same selected objects/layers. This is where the "database organizational think" can get one going down a rabbit hole with a lot of time wasted.
I'm sorry, and no offense, but this isn't making any sense to me. This suggests that if I have ten options for a part I would have some sort of master set of toolpaths that I have to fiddle with to get a particular variation in a product? And, having been a high tech design engineer and product manager for 30 years, what you are saying doesn't fit with my experience. Maybe for simple things like signs or something, but not for something complex. Each part is designed in conjunction with it's other associated parts, then a toolpath iscreated to make the part.

I'm very particular in how I create and name toolpaths, that is't the problem, it's simply having layers that are completely immaterial to one sheet appearing in the layers list for another sheet. I have different sheets for each part, with a few that are quite similar in some regards (like overall profile shape), but very different in terms of details. I'm fine with switching layers and toolpaths for any one part, but for instance, as my retirement project, I am making guitars, and have bodies, necks, pickguards, fretboards, etc. in separate sheets. I like this method as it is much easier to integrate (scale, size, align) parts than to have them in separate files. It was the main reason I wanted version 11. It all works great except for the jumbled mess in the layers list. What I am asking for is to be able to isolate all the layers from the neck designs from the body designs, etc.

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Leo »

So with sheets and layers there are an infinate number of things you can do with it.

I just made 4 banks in the shape of letters - I call them letter banks. They are all different shapes - Letter "A", Letter "G" and so on. I made a sheet for each letter bank

They all have the sames cuts.
Pocket out the main pocket area
Pocket a recess for the clear acrylic cover
Roundover the outer perimetem
Drill screw holes
Cutout around the perimiter

I made a toolpath template to load into each sheet

I needed to recalculate each toolpath by selecting the vector in the toolpath form them calculate.

If I would have made a layer unique for each cut. I could have associated the layer with the toolpath, thereby saving some steps of needing to select each individual vector.

You "might" be able to do that. You would need to set up the layers to be for a certain cut. For example Cut Body Perimeter layer. In the toolpath to cut the body, you just associate the toolpath to that layer.

Sheet 1 body may be a different shape that the body on sheet 2 but the association still works.

Does that make sense?

I have only used layer association once before, so I may be a little off with the explanation.

Adrian is a master at that stuff.
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relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Thank you all for your input, it's been somewhat helpful in how I think about layers, but as I've pointed out in replies (that I hope didn't sound bad, I simply wasn't sure how else to say what I am looking for), I'm probably using sheets differently than others. To me, have the OPTION to be able to group layers for specific sheets, or groups of sheets, much as we can do with Toolpaths, or better yet, allowing each sheet to show ONLY the toolpaths associated with that sheet (some of which might be common to other sheets) would be a great feature to add. If I'm looking at part A, I don't have any need to see the layers for part B, when I am trying to edit Part A, and vice versa.

I guess I use sheets more like the sheets we have in Excel, where one workbook will contain mulitple worksheets, some of which may link to one another, but others have nothing in common, other than that they are associated to one project. It is very nice and convenient to have all the parts that must connect to one another in the same file, so they can be properly fitted and aligned to one another, but have zero layers in common.

The issue I am bringing up is not how to handle layers and toolpaths, but how to isolate the layers from completely different parts, as it makes for a long, cluttered and unneccessarily complex layers list.

Anyway, thanks, again, is there someone I can contact at Vectric to make this request, or do they monitor these pages?
Last edited by relayerbob on Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Leo wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:34 pm
So with sheets and layers there are an infinate number of things you can do with it.

I just made 4 banks in the shape of letters - I call them letter banks. They are all different shapes - Letter "A", Letter "G" and so on. I made a sheet for each letter bank

They all have the sames cuts.
Pocket out the main pocket area
Pocket a recess for the clear acrylic cover
Roundover the outer perimetem
Drill screw holes
Cutout around the perimiter

I made a toolpath template to load into each sheet

I needed to recalculate each toolpath by selecting the vector in the toolpath form them calculate.

If I would have made a layer unique for each cut. I could have associated the layer with the toolpath, thereby saving some steps of needing to select each individual vector.

You "might" be able to do that. You would need to set up the layers to be for a certain cut. For example Cut Body Perimeter layer. In the toolpath to cut the body, you just associate the toolpath to that layer.

Sheet 1 body may be a different shape that the body on sheet 2 but the association still works.

Does that make sense?

I have only used layer association once before, so I may be a little off with the explanation.

Adrian is a master at that stuff.
I see what you are saying, but that doesn't have much to do with my issue. I have a 10-15 layers associated with each "letter", most of which have nothing to do with one another, and seldom use the same cuts on the same piece of wood. I also have 3D models dropped in among the various 2D vectors to make particular shapes. Currently, if we open up letter A, we see all the layers necessary for latter B, C, D, etc., even if I have no interest in working with those other letters. It clutters it all up.

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Adrian »

Personally I think you're trying to stretch the concepts of sheets and layers too far. If the parts you have on the sheets are totally unrelated to anything else in the job file and need their own layers and toolpaths separate from everything else then wouldn't it be easier to have separate files and use the sheets for parts that are relevant to that file?

I still don't get how you expect the toolpaths to work. The fact that you're mentioning about not being able to copy toolpaths between sheets shows you don't fully understand the relationship between vectors, layers, sheets and toolpaths but that might just be talking at cross purposes.

Nesting is where sheets originated from. Sheets have been in the product for years but it's only recently they've existed outside of nesting.

Anyway if you want to request something or report a bug it's best to email support@vectric.com

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