Question about layers and sheets

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adze_cnc
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by adze_cnc »

A sample file to amplify Leo's points. It's using VCarve 9.5 so it doesn't have all the latest greatest multiple sheet thicknesses, etc. that 11.5 has but it is a good starting point.

Note the each separate items design on each sheet is in the same layer. There are two toolpaths depending on the depth of pocket needed.

I always leery of an omnibus files. With project templates, toolpath templates, document variables, etc. there doesn't seem to me the need to glom all together in one file.
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sample sheets and layers.crv
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Leo
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Leo »

relayerbob,

I am an engineer and have used Solidworks, AutoCAD, Unigraphics and others. I have used the parametrics and assemblies and such. I also use excel and associate the worksheets to a main sheet.

I can say this about Vectric and other hobby, artistic sort of software used in woodworking or other materials.

It is a little bit different. Some of the experiences of my career in metal manufacturing is useful, but there is a different mindset in this new industry.

When I first got into the Router and Vectric, even trials with ArtCam I was a bit adament about certain aspects of my profession as it is related to Vectric and CNC router.

I got knocked down a bunch of times, but I found that the way this stuff works is pretty good. Vectric engineers are pretty good at what they do, and there is some decent rationale involved in the aproaches to some of this stuff.

I am not trying to say that you are wrong in your strategies. You are obviously a very smart person. I am just saying that Vectric usually has a pretty good handle on what they are doing with the software. They DO listen, please be assured of that.

I suggest that you make your point with them via support@vectric.com
In the meantime - perhaps there is a takeaway to be had in some of the suggestions made here. Again - Adrian is a master at this stuff.

I want to thank you for your indepth discussion about layers, there is merit in what you are saying.
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relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Adrian wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:54 pm
Personally I think you're trying to stretch the concepts of sheets and layers too far. If the parts you have on the sheets are totally unrelated to anything else in the job file and need their own layers and toolpaths separate from everything else then wouldn't it be easier to have separate files and use the sheets for parts that are relevant to that file?

I still don't get how you expect the toolpaths to work. The fact that you're mentioning about not being able to copy toolpaths between sheets shows you don't fully understand the relationship between vectors, layers, sheets and toolpaths but that might just be talking at cross purposes.

Nesting is where sheets originated from. Sheets have been in the product for years but it's only recently they've existed outside of nesting.

Anyway if you want to request something or report a bug it's best to email support@vectric.com
"If the parts you have on the sheets are totally unrelated to anything else in the job file and need their own layers and toolpaths separate from everything else then wouldn't it be easier to have separate files and use the sheets for parts that are relevant to that file?"

Not at all, it's FAR simpler to have the parts in one place so I can easily "connect them" to ensure proper fit and function. Otherwise, I have to have four or five insances of Aspire open, and copy between them, often having to realign everything. When it's in one place, it's a simple cntl-C and cntrl-V from the various sheets and everything is fine. And if I have options between sheets that are otherwise the same, then, yes, the same layers and toolpaths can be executed.

In any case, my question has exactly nothing to do with toolpaths. It is simply a request to allow LAYERS to be isolated by sheets, as grouping allows toolpaths to be separate into groups, for clarity. I use layers for separating design elements, not isolating toolpaths. You may well be right that I don't use the exact relationship between layers and toolpaths as you do, but I've been using Aspire for about 5 years quite happily and successfully.

All I want is to be able to group layers as in the toolpaths, or to only show the relevent layers for any particular sheet. The first person who answered got it, said it wasn't possible and agreed that there should be a better structure there. That was fine. I am contacting support to ask for that as a feature upgrade, it is really quite a clear request, and a simple thing to program.

relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Leo wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:23 pm
relayerbob,

I am an engineer and have used Solidworks, AutoCAD, Unigraphics and others. I have used the parametrics and assemblies and such. I also use excel and associate the worksheets to a main sheet.

I can say this about Vectric and other hobby, artistic sort of software used in woodworking or other materials.

It is a little bit different. Some of the experiences of my career in metal manufacturing is useful, but there is a different mindset in this new industry.

When I first got into the Router and Vectric, even trials with ArtCam I was a bit adament about certain aspects of my profession as it is related to Vectric and CNC router.

I got knocked down a bunch of times, but I found that the way this stuff works is pretty good. Vectric engineers are pretty good at what they do, and there is some decent rationale involved in the aproaches to some of this stuff.

I am not trying to say that you are wrong in your strategies. You are obviously a very smart person. I am just saying that Vectric usually has a pretty good handle on what they are doing with the software. They DO listen, please be assured of that.

I suggest that you make your point with them via support@vectric.com
In the meantime - perhaps there is a takeaway to be had in some of the suggestions made here. Again - Adrian is a master at this stuff.

I want to thank you for your indepth discussion about layers, there is merit in what you are saying.
Thank you. Yes, I am quite happy with Aspire, and agree they do a good job. I use Aspire all the time, it works great for me, and has for over 5 years, I wasn't complaining. In fact, the addition of Sheets to do exactly what I described, which is to put multiple dissimilar parts into one file, was something I was really happy about. And still am. It works great.

I simply would like to add a feature to allow grouping of layers, as it would make the layers tab more manageable, and I expect (based on the first response to my question), others would like this capabilty, too.

I appreciate your comments, and those of the others. I really prefer to build stuff than try to learn new ways of thinking about software - my position has, for decades, been that software should conform to how people work, not the other way around, lol.

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Tex_Lawrence »

relayerbob wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:40 pm
... my position has, for decades, been that software should confiorm to how people work, not the other wat around, lol.
Exactly, Bob, but all we can do here is try to help you answer your question with what we have to work with. We can't change the software, and I know you know that.

If you compile what you've written here into an email to support@vectric.com , you'll probably get someone's attention.

But first, let them work on making the laser toolpath work like all the other toolpaths! :lol:
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relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Tex_Lawrence wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:00 pm
relayerbob wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:40 pm
... my position has, for decades, been that software should confiorm to how people work, not the other wat around, lol.
Exactly, Bob, but all we can do here is try to help you answer your question with what we have to work with. We can't change the software, and I know you know that.

If you compile what you've written here into an email to support@vectric.com , you'll probably get someone's attention.

But first, let them work on making the laser toolpath work like all the other toolpaths! :lol:
Thanks, I just did that (wrote to them) a bit ago. I just thought I was missing something basic in the layer tab, certainly wasn't expecting a discussion on toolpaths, haha. I haven't tried the laser on 11.5 yet, did it change from 10.x?

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Adrian
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Adrian »

relayerbob wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:33 pm

In any case, my question has exactly nothing to do with toolpaths. It is simply a request to allow LAYERS to be isolated by sheets, as grouping allows toolpaths to be separate into groups, for clarity. I use layers for separating design elements, not isolating toolpaths. You may well be right that I don't use the exact relationship between layers and toolpaths as you do, but I've been using Aspire for about 5 years quite happily and successfully.
Well it does have a lot to do with toolpaths if you want to cut the designs at some point. Making things "easier" at one stage can make them far "harder" at a later stage.

I was just trying to make that point but in a quite bad way judging by your response. My apologies for that. I hope Vectric can make the changes you want without impacting on how things work currently then we'll all be happy with our workflows.

relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

[/quote]

Well it does have a lot to do with toolpaths if you want to cut the designs at some point. Making things "easier" at one stage can make them far "harder" at a later stage.

I was just trying to make that point but in a quite bad way judging by your response. My apologies for that. I hope Vectric can make the changes you want without impacting on how things work currently then we'll all be happy with our workflows.
[/quote]

Sorry, didn't mean to get snippy, just was frustrated.

I've designed and built many items, from plaques and digital picture frames, to little things like knobs and small parts, up to my own unique and patented guitar designs and speaker cabinets and cut parts all the time, I've been using Aspire on a regular basis for around five years now. I finally got what you were trying to say, I was misunderstanding your point entirely, as it was just so far away from my question. I already do much of what you were saying, and given I was using Sheets to make multiple parts, my question had basically nothing to do with toolpaths, those are specific to the different parts, really nothing in common between a guitar body and its neck, except for the interface.

Anyway, thanks for trying to help. It should be relatively easy to implement what I was looking for, especially if they just allow grouping like they do on toolpaths, so I can keep the different parts' layers separate. Looking back, I wasn't clear on my first post that I was making different parts in one file, I assumed most, or at least, alot, of others did that, too, since that's an obvious application for sheets, and indeed one of the main reasons I wanted to update from 10.5 (Big fan of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it").

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Happy to report that after my request, Vectric has added this feature as an option to their development queue.

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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by Leo »

relayerbob wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:51 pm
Happy to report that after my request, Vectric has added this feature as an option to their development queue.
Good to hear that. I am certain it will be a useful addition.

Keep in mind that they just released 11.5 so it will be some time before we see 12.0 released
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relayerbob
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Re: Question about layers and sheets

Post by relayerbob »

Leo wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:18 pm
relayerbob wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:51 pm
Happy to report that after my request, Vectric has added this feature as an option to their development queue.
Good to hear that. I am certain it will be a useful addition.

Keep in mind that they just released 11.5 so it will be some time before we see 12.0 released
I'm sure it will be awhile, but nice to know it's in the queue. It really isn't a big change, it may get tossed in before that, but whenever they do it, I'll be happy with it.

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