3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

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Chuck Keysor
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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Chuck Keysor »

Doug, right now, I just think I've gotten older...... Chuck

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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by mezalick »

Chuck,
The number of vectors looks about right..See my attached picture..
To answer your questions.. First off,,,,everyone has a slightly different way of working, so my suggestions are just that,,my way of working.
Hopefully there is a small bit of helpful information somewhere in my answers.

You state that you would need to draw the entire image again..why ??? the vectors are not effected by the resolution...That only applies to the components...
Open a new session of Aspire, at a higher resolution, and from the original session, copy the vectors and paste then in the new session.
Your half way finished.
You should look at your vectors and see if they are made up of too many nodes. This is different than resolution..
The more nodes in a vector the more likely to have unacceptable results.

Do you have to start making the model then look at the model ???
Well, you don’t have to, but since the software is designed around the motto “ What you see is what you get”, I would say yes to your question.
Many people who do 3-D work have two monitors....for me, the left monitor is the 2-D side and the right monitor is the 3-D.
That way I have a constant visual of what 3-D item I’m working on and make corrections as needed.
Or you can simply use the "Split Screen" option in the software.

The size of the project will be effected by the resolution..but a 66” x 33” is not that large.
The largest I did was 48” x 156” with no issues of pixelation, but I did use the maximum resolution..

Here are some general guidelines for how many pixels you can have in the different resolution settings
Standard = 1,000,000 pixels
•High = 2,000,000 Pixels
•Very High = 4,000,000 Pixels
•Extremely High = 8,000,000 Pixels
•Maximum = 16,000,000 Pixels

But remember that the higher the resolution the slower your computer will work.

Another tip, for future reference..don't simply bake all your components together without making a duplicate of them.
Remember the " Create component from Visible Model" icon ???,,,or save the file as a Version 2 and bake those together...but in fact there may not be a need to bake them together...

The bottom line message is that you can do this in one setting.
If you want to send me just a few vectors of your troubled areas I'll take a look and see if I can suggest something more.

Michael
mm@mezalick.com
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Vectors.JPG
Michael Mezalick
https://www.youtube.com/user/mezalick
mm@mezalick.com

Chuck Keysor
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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Chuck Keysor »

Thank you Michael. I'll digest this in the morning,,,,, later, as it is 1:22am my time.

But a couple of quick points, thankfully, I do have and use two monitors (though in Aspire they don't work as well as in certain other applications,,,, In other applications, I can grab a screen and rip it off, and drop it on the other monitor, and that seems more stable, than in Aspire, where I have to stretch the split screen, across two displays....

Yes, I have the vectors, but on a single two rail sweep of a single leaf, I would typically have 4 or 5 different cross sections, and even where along the rails they are placed changes the shape of the leaf,,,,,,,, and I fiddled so much, trying to make each leaf flow just right, and look like what I thought made it seem alive........ I was admittedly obsessing, but I know I will do all that obsessing again, not to make it exactly match what I had before, but to get each leaf just right........

The vectors are generally minimalist when it comes to nodes, as when I form each curve, I find it easier to make things flow with a low number of nodes. If I get too many notes, getting each section to blend right with the next becomes very hard for me.

Before I make my model, I draw a 2d "cartoon", as a guide, and I try to make that look nice. But once I start looking at the built-up 3D model, and look from different angles, things that looked OK in 2d, may not look good in 3D from various angles..........

And then, in the case of the subject design, it goes way up in the air, so I wind up tilting each piece, so the top of each part tilts out maybe 3 to 5 degrees, and then each part as you go up, is placed further out from the background. And I start to get into all that tilting as a late stage step. And the tilting of the leafs that draped across the bell shaped base was very hard, as I had the tilt to worry about, and I had to wrap the leafs around to the back side of the bell, forcing me to tilt one way, then bake the leaf, then tilt it out at the top, and bake it, then tilt it more to the side,,,, very iterative. And I have to keep going, until I think it looks good enough......

And I did get very lucky on one point, and that was my artichoke. By luck, that was the first thing I modeled, and it was the hardest thing, and I found my job size was very small, like 4 by 7 inches, at 7X slower resolution, so that one part is good! So I can not loose site of that.

Again, I GREATLY appreciate your input, and I will digest it when I am awake. (I have to be up at 9:15am to show some 5th graders some local neighborhood points of interest.)

Best regards, Chuck

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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by mezalick »

Chuck,
From everything you said it sounds like you're doing everything correctly....
In time your speed will increase but it's still a very intense process....
If I need to bake an item I will normally make a duplicate of it,,,just because I make a lot of dumb mistakes...

So here's another item to think about....What do we charge for making items like this vs. what will people be willing to pay...

Best regards,

Michael
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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by seanm »

mezalick wrote:
Here are some general guidelines for how many pixels you can have in the different resolution settings
Standard = 1,000,000 pixels
•High = 2,000,000 Pixels
•Very High = 4,000,000 Pixels
•Extremely High = 8,000,000 Pixels
•Maximum = 16,000,000 Pixels
Hi Chuck,

The main thing here you need to be aware of is "pixels per inch", if you use a job size of 66" x 33" and then divide that workspace equally between what you set the resolution at(4m pixels) each pixel is going to be of a certain size, now if you used the same (4m) resolution for a job size of 33" x 16.5" each pixel is going to be smaller than the pixel size of the job that was 66" x 33" so per inch, you would get more pixels which means you should expect greater clarity. If you can, model components separately in a smaller job with as greater resolution as your pc can handle then bring that into a larger job afterwards for best results.

Hope this helps,

Sean

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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Adrian »

The way I always like to imagine it is as though the workspace is one of these:
pins.jpg
Each "pin" is a pixel. Push something into it so that only a few pins are moved and you'll be hard pressed to see what it is (the equivalent of modelling a 6" item on an 8' workspace). Make them all move and you get a much clearer image. Put more pins into the same space and it's even clearer.

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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Druid_ian »

Chuck Keysor wrote:Thanks Michael, the plate makes sense. I do that after I come back from donating blood. Our local blood bank always has a special drive on Halloween, and they caught me this year.
Around here the nurses who do the Blood banks are known as Dracula's daughters

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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Rcnewcomb »

If you can, model components separately in a smaller job with as greater resolution as your pc can handle then bring that into a larger job afterwards for best results.
This is excellent advice.

Long ago when we first started 3D modeling we were creating an old style bicycle for a sign. Trying to do the whole thing at once became a horrible mess. James Booth recommended making each component of the bicycle as a separate file -- a wheel, pedals, handlebars, the frame, etc. This make each task easier and it gave us the flexibility to have a choice of handlebars or wheels. We could then create a larger project and copy each of these components to the new design.

Eventually we built up a library of small components that could be combined into more complicated designs. While it was slow going initially, in the long run it saved us a lot of work and gave us much greater flexibility.
- Randall Newcomb
10 fingers in, 10 fingers out, another good day in the shop

Chuck Keysor
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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Chuck Keysor »

Thanks everyone for so many informative responses.

I had bordered on asking, "Gee what modeling resolution should I use?" Well, since that is a highly situation dependent question, I decided to run a basic test to answer my own question. So I set up a series of tests, using my original "Job Size" (which was way too large....92" x 52") and made two simple models at sizes representative of components found in my design. And so after looking at the test results, it looks like I don't want to go any less than 1672 pixels per square inch.

To beat a dead horse (so I won't forget right away), with my original huge job size, it would take the "Extreme resolution" modeling level to get the minimum level of resolution I think I need. Yet, if I go and model one of the smaller parts, all alone, say one which needs a "Job Size" of only 20" x 10", the lowest resolution "Standard" would provide 5000 pixels/sq.in,,,,, far better than my minimum requirement of 1672 pixels per square inch.

I'll get back to answer any questions offered, after I eat some lunch. Thanks again, Chuck
Attachments
Standard:  209 pixels per square inch
Standard: 209 pixels per square inch
High:  418 pixels per square inch
High: 418 pixels per square inch
Very high:  836 pixels per square inch
Very high: 836 pixels per square inch
Extreme:  1672 pixels per square inch
Extreme: 1672 pixels per square inch
Maximum:  3344 pixels per square inch
Maximum: 3344 pixels per square inch

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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Adrian »

If you haven't already seen it then this video is well worth watching to see how the resolutions work - http://support.vectric.com/tips-and-tri ... ideo_id=10

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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Chuck Keysor »

Thank you Adrian. I did see that video a couple of weeks ago for the first time when I became aware of the 5 minute training videos. Perhaps that helped me to understand the deep mess I was in when I realized I had used too low of a modeling resolution. And, I just rewatched that video a few minutes ago.

I would like to note a sentence that I think is confusing in that video. James said that in Standard resolution, that there are 1,000,000 pixels spread over the part. In reality, the 1Megapixels are spread over the entire 3D model plane, the size of which is of course determined by the "Job size" on the Job Set-up" tab. If those points just spread over the part, then I would have been in the clear. Maybe it sounds like I am splitting hairs, but that sentence could confuse someone who is first trying to understand this.

In reality, I had a "textbook" understanding of the issue, in that had you asked me to do a multiple choice test on this, I would have been able to answer the basic points. But my functional understanding was not what it should have been, and I unthinkingly selected the "Very High" resolution, without doing anything to see if that resolution was high enough or not. And then I simply tuned out all those pixeled edges whenever I saw them........ Double DUH........

Well, as Michael (Mezalick) pointed out, I got educated by the school of hard knocks, and so the matter of project resolution (which I will now call "Functional Resolution") makes sense to me and I have an understanding of what resolution I should aim for as a minimum, and what will happen if I mess up!

Thank you again, as I GREATLY appreciate all of the help that is available here on your forum! Chuck

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Re: 3D model resolution confusion/ jagged edges

Post by Chuck Keysor »

Michael, in one of your posts you said: "So here's another item to think about....What do we charge for making items like this vs. what will people be willing to pay..."

That very point has been weighing on me heavily. It has seemed as though any type of custom work will be so expensive, I had only figured I'd have to build up a catalog of designs, and offer those, with the ability to quickly scale them, and make some edits.

But Randall Newcomb offered another key part in making the design process not as expensive, and that is to create a library of parts which can be reused. Though I shutter to think of how long it would take me to accumulate what I would want.

Well, here an entire day has gone by, and I haven't touched the re-creation of my earlier design........ Tomorrow!

Thanks again, Chuck

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