help with molding

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hobbyist
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help with molding

Post by hobbyist »

Hello all.
I have a friend who is trying to restore an old wooden window.

The bottom sash is totally dry rot and will need a new piece.
One of the center window sash is also in bad shape.

I am trying to use my onefinity CNC to create a molding.
I have Vectric vcarve pro.
I am fairly new to the whole CNC world.
However I am a lifelong woodworker, and have completed several CNC projects.
I have watched several videos on the vectric molding toolpath and am willing to give it a try.

I know I need to create a dfx file of the molding but unsure how to do this.
20230325_163026.jpg
This is an end view of one of the cross pieces, the bottom sash will have the same design (one half)

I don't need to design the bottom “tongue” as I can cut the rabbits with a router or table saw.

The dimensions are as follows”

Total width is .75
Total heighth is 1.34 (including the “tongue”
Top Step is .313.wide by .156 high
Second step is .563 wide and .313 high
Last step is .75 wide and will go the rest of the way to the bottom

I thought I might be able to draw an outline of the end view but not sure how to proceed.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Mike
"Not all Who Wander are Lost" (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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ohiolyons
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Re: help with molding

Post by ohiolyons »

In Aspire this would be a piece of cake.

My guess in VCarve is double sided job and use Moulding Toolpath on both sides.

Drive rail a straight line and draw half you profile.
John Lyons
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dealguy11
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Re: help with molding

Post by dealguy11 »

There are a few ways you might go about this. Not sure what the tongue on the bottom is, but you could easily make it as a separate piece and glue it on later.

If you don't include the tongue on the bottom, you could possibly set it on the flat on the bottom and cut the entire profile using a moulding toolpath. Depends how tall the profile is, and whether you have bits long enough for the entire thing. Another approach would be to split it down the middle into 2 pieces, cut each side of the molding and then glue it together. I personally would not try to do this as a 2-sided job, so if I couldn't cut it top down, then I would split it in two. I suppose if you split it in two then you could also cut the tongue rather than glue it on.

Just because it can maybe be done as a 2-sided project doesn't mean that's the best approach. People have been making moldings like these as glue-ups a lot longer than there have been CNCs.
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dealguy11
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Re: help with molding

Post by dealguy11 »

Just looked again at your dimensions and there is no reason this couldn't be cut top down with a ballnose bit.

You have a photograph of the profile. Import it into VCarve and manually draw vectors using the bitmap as a guide. This photo isn't good enough to use the tracing function, and frankly it's easier just to draw the vectors anyway, plus they'll be a lot cleaner. Don't worry about size when you're drawing the vectors, just get the shape right. Make sure the nodes on the bottom of the shape have the same "Y" point.

Once you've drawn the shape, use the "Set Selected Objects Size" tool to precisely set the size of the drawing.

You should end up with an open vector representing the shape of the molding. Make a single line for the rail at whatever length you need, then select the rail first and the shape second and open the Moulding Toolpath dialog to create the toolpath.
Steve Godding
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Re: help with molding

Post by hobbyist »

my first thought would be to use the molding toolpath and then setup a profile toolpath to cut all the way through on both sides.
then cut the rabbet out on both sides afterward. (this is for the glass)

for the bottom of the window I only need 1/2 of the profile as there is only glass on one side.

My sticking point right now is creating the dfx file to use in the molding toolpath.
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dealguy11
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Re: help with molding

Post by dealguy11 »

No dxf file needed. Can be done directly in VCarve.

See attached file. This took all of 5 minutes to draw and size. The final sized drawing is on the right. I manually traced 1/2 of the drawing (the left side), sized the drawing, made a couple of small adjustments to match the sizes in your original posting, and finally mirrored the drawing and joined the 2 halves.
Attachments
Sash Molding.crv
(49.5 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
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Re: help with molding

Post by hobbyist »

Thank you so much
is there a video on how to manually trace or did you do it freehand?

you have saved me hrs of work.

Mike
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Re: help with molding

Post by hobbyist »

dealguy11 wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:36 am
No dxf file needed. Can be done directly in VCarve.

See attached file. This took all of 5 minutes to draw and size. The final sized drawing is on the right. I manually traced 1/2 of the drawing (the left side), sized the drawing, made a couple of small adjustments to match the sizes in your original posting, and finally mirrored the drawing and joined the 2 halves.
Still struggling with this profile.

I have tried several different profile shapes and I can’t seem to get it to match.

I am using the molding profile toolpath.
I am trying to match the “cope” in the pictures, so the two will mate together.
The bottom part of the “rabbit” is not a concern, just the profile.

I’ll include the crv file I have been using as well as a couple of the best pictures of the molding.

Thank You for any assistance.

Mike
Attachments
Dan profile test3.crv
(50 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
20230401_115157.jpg
20230401_115229.jpg
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dealguy11
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Re: help with molding

Post by dealguy11 »

I imported the photos you posted and used them as guides to manually draw vectors. Each photo had to be slightly rotated to make it horizontal. Vectors were then resized to 7/8" tall. I got a slightly different vector for each side, so you would need to pick whichever you think is closer, or do it yourself using the same technique. Frankly I think you'll have an issue trying to generate a cope this way. You can get pretty close but it's really hard to make it perfect.

File was too big with pictures included, so here it is with just the final vectors.
Attachments
Copes 2.crv
(51 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
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Re: help with molding

Post by hobbyist »

Many Thanks.
I have tried to trace the photo and haven't come very close at all.
I am getting better at really zooming in and tracing the outline.
Although I know I would do better if I had a "smart pen" attached to my touch screen laptop.
Mouse is just to hard to control.

At this point pretty close is much better that I have gotten so far.

Thanks again and I'll let you know how it goes.

Mike
"Not all Who Wander are Lost" (J.R.R. Tolkien)

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Re: help with molding

Post by sharkcutup »

Okay My Take on this ----
Screenshot 2023-04-01 195309.png
Without the Measurements
Screenshot 2023-04-01 195146.png
With the Measurements

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dealguy11
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Re: help with molding

Post by dealguy11 »

I don't really think a smart pen helps that much for this kind of work. The way I do it is I go into the polyline tool and draw a polyline, clicking each point on some important part of the drawing (corner, either end or center of arc [whichever makes more sense], other places where the drawing changes direction). I don't worry very much about hitting the points exactly at this time, just getting the major shape blocked out. It is important to get vertical and horizontal lines right when doing this, so I have snaps turned on. Once the shape is blocked out, I go into node editing mode and start dragging points where they belong. Line segments conveniently have a center point indicated, which can also be dragged to automatically insert points and add more detail, although my goal is to add the least number of points possible. Then I choose appropriate points and click the "S" button to smooth the curves, which also automatically converts the lines to beziers. Grabbing the handles on the bezier curves can quickly get the curves just right. You can also convert segments to beziers by clicking on them and hitting "B" or to arcs by hitting "A". All of this can be done easily with a mouse. If you go into node editing mode and right click on a point or part of the polyline, you will find a lot of options (many of them with shortcut keys) that make this go really fast.

I watched James Booth do this years ago at a Vectric user group meeting. After you practice it a bit, you can create shapes manually with far fewer nodes than the Trace Bitmap tool, and actually faster once you factor in not having to clean up the messy lines that the Trace Bitmap tool provides.
Steve Godding
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Re: help with molding

Post by hobbyist »

dealguy11 wrote:
Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:59 am
I don't really think a smart pen helps that much for this kind of work. The way I do it is I go into the polyline tool and draw a polyline, clicking each point on some important part of the drawing (corner, either end or center of arc [whichever makes more sense], other places where the drawing changes direction). I don't worry very much about hitting the points exactly at this time, just getting the major shape blocked out. It is important to get vertical and horizontal lines right when doing this, so I have snaps turned on. Once the shape is blocked out, I go into node editing mode and start dragging points where they belong. Line segments conveniently have a center point indicated, which can also be dragged to automatically insert points and add more detail, although my goal is to add the least number of points possible. Then I choose appropriate points and click the "S" button to smooth the curves, which also automatically converts the lines to beziers. Grabbing the handles on the bezier curves can quickly get the curves just right. You can also convert segments to beziers by clicking on them and hitting "B" or to arcs by hitting "A". All of this can be done easily with a mouse. If you go into node editing mode and right click on a point or part of the polyline, you will find a lot of options (many of them with shortcut keys) that make this go really fast.

I watched James Booth do this years ago at a Vectric user group meeting. After you practice it a bit, you can create shapes manually with far fewer nodes than the Trace Bitmap tool, and actually faster once you factor in not having to clean up the messy lines that the Trace Bitmap tool provides.
I believe I have it. :D

I kept trying to make the profile fit the wood.
it would match but be on the face not the edge.
the window frame is 1.375" thick and 3.25" wide , and 14" long.
I decided to make my test piece 1.375 x 1.375 x 10"
I got a good match and found that I needed to place my stock "on edge" instead of on the face.

Anyway it looks pretty close and will work for me.
Thanks again for all the help.
Mike
BTW you mentioned that you attended a vectric user group meeting.
I have been trying to fine one in Oregon (USA) but so far unable to locate one.
Attachments
Window Profile.jpg
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dealguy11
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Re: help with molding

Post by dealguy11 »

There is one per year in the US. Location is generally announced on this forum. Last year was in San Diego. I don't think this year's is announced yet.
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ohiolyons
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Re: help with molding

Post by ohiolyons »

Mike
BTW you mentioned that you attended a vectric user group meeting.
I have been trying to fine one in Oregon (USA) but so far unable to locate one.
I think he is referring to the yearly Vectirc supported meeting.
This year there will only be a global virtual meeting usually October.

There are local user's groups, best way to find is call your local woodworking supply store, Rockler or Woodcraft.
Many do do virtual meetings, I belong to 4 "Local" user's groups.
I live in Kettering, Ohio and belong to Cincinnati's, Dayton's, Milwaukee's and Colorado's user's groups.
They meet once a month for an hour or two.

Contact for these groups

Cincinnati ZOOM only - John Lyons ohiolyons@gmail.com 3rd Saturday of month 9:00 AM Eastern
Dayton In person only - Tony Beran woodcraftdaytoncnc@gmail.com 2nd Thursday of month 6:30 PM eastern
Milwaukee ZOOM only - Bob Hartig bobthemaker921@gmail.com 1st saturday of month 10:00 AM Eastern
Colorado WEBEX & Live - coloradocncusergroup@gmail.com 3rd ish Saturday or Wednesday 11:00 AM Eastern

I always learn something from each group each month.
Each group is different and has their areas of emphasis based on interests.

The meeting formats usually match the following:
1) show and tell us what you did since your last meeting, both good and whoops,
2) some type of demo/educational material on a technique or vectric software feature.
3) open to any question you got.
John Lyons
CNC in Kettering, Ohio

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