Vectric Validator Intersections and Overlaps

[wannabecnc]

Hi Guys,
Nearly eight hours to try and remove hundreds of intersections and overlaps, and still no joy. Whatever I do, more just keep coming back to the same areas and different areas.
Frustrating or what.
I see how many issues in Validator, Close validator, expand the project to one area, select one area and work on it. I move a node to see if there is another line underneath, if so, I delete and put back the node I moved and so on. I get rid of that area, or so it seems, but every time I go back to Validator the remaining problems never seem to reduce, they always stay around 650 something.
Please, someone, tell me, what I'm doing wrong, or why I'm having these issues.
I imported an SVG file from a picture that I took and asked someone to change it to a line drawing and SVG file via Adobe Illustrator.
I have already been able to sort out issues in validator before, but for some reason, when the numbers are so high, it has a hard time, or should I say, I have a hard time resolving the issues.
Why do the intersections and overlaps keep coming back after they have been removed? Or what I think have been removed. All I can think is, I'm doing something very wrong.
I will attach a couple of pics to show what I'm referring to, in the sense of how many intersections and overlaps are there, and keep coming back. Some of the ones I have done appear, and others come back in the area where there weren't any.
Please can someone put me on the right track to resolve this frustrating issue?
Thank you so much, everyone.

Kind regards,

[martin54]

It can take many hours to clean up artwork & it may be that what you think you are doing to clear these areas is not actually clearing them, it may also be that when moving nodes you are creating new problems, it is very difficult to know for sure. It is one of those things that unfortunately takes time to be able to do well & requires practice

What are your plans for the actual image? What you would like to achieve can have a big impact on the amount of work that you have to do. For example if you want to engrave that image then you may not have to do a lot of work cleaning than image up at all.

Here is what I would do if I wanted to engrave the image, select all the vectors, select a profile cut cutting on the line with a V bit & set a small cut depth, press calculate, if a warning pops up then just ignore it. Then preview the toolpath. Zoom in & scan around looking for any problem areas, make a note of them. There may not be any or there may be quite a few. How the image looks from that toolpath preview will at least give me an idea what sort of work is ahead of me & if I want to spend the time cleaning it up

[wannabecnc]

Hi Martin54,

Thank you for your reply and input. If it's a Bitmap or Vector file, Does that make any difference? Will Vectric still put up a flag to say the validator is required?
While at work, I was thinking maybe it's only on vectors and not bitmaps, or maybe it's both.
I had a person who uses Adobe Illustrator to do a line drawing for me, then once it was done, I asked for the drawing to be made into an SVG file. Do you think that changing the line drawing to SVG would have caused the problems?
When I opened the file into Vcarve, it gave an SVG layer, a bitmap layer and a layer one. Is that normal?
Maybe that was the cause of so many intersections and overlaps.

Thank you so much.

Kind regards

[dealguy11]

It's called the "Vector Validator". It works on vectors. Bitmaps are only useful as tools to create vectors. Vectors and components are required to make toolpaths.

When you import an SVG file, the software creates Vectric vectors. They are no longer whatever they were as SVG entities. VCarve creates an SVG layer as a convenience, so you can easily see what vectors were imported from the SVG source.

Bitmaps by themselves can't result in overlaps and intersections, because there's nothing to overlap or intersect. You need vectors for that.

The problem here is that you have a very busy drawing that resulted in a lot of vectors that aren't that well-suited to CNCing. Many drawing programs aren't really oriented at CNC work so they produce vectors that are not properly set up for the task. The drawing can be cleaned up, but you will have to go over it section by section to do the cleanup in node editing mode. If you are planning to Vcarve it, then all the vectors will need to be closed. If all you want to do is run a v-cutter on the vectors, to essentially create a line drawing with no 2.5d or 3d elements, then you might be able to get by with the current drawing, setting up a profile toolpath to cut on the vector.

[SteveNelson46]

I think you are confused about the difference between a bitmap and a vector. A bitmap is a picture that only has color and no depth. Therefore, it can't be toolpathed unless it is converted to a component or something the program recognizes as an object with a vertical or measurable height. A vector, whether drawn by the program or imported, .eps, dxf, etc, can be toolpathed directly without any conversion. This can be a little confusing as there are vector drawings that can be toolpathed but they are not bitmaps.

[wannabecnc]

Hi Steve Nelson and Deal Guy,
Thank you for the input, I appreciate it.
If you saw the attachments that I included in my previous message that you replied to, the intersections and overlaps in the picture are only part of what was there originally. When I first opened the Vectric Validator, for example, one of the wheels had them totally around the circle of the wheel and all around the window frame as if there were problems along every mm of the drawing shape.
Once I cleared an area, more would appear in other areas that weren't there before. To me that seems so strange, I would have thought that if they're there, then they should all show up at the beginning.
If I want to use a photo to convert to a usable CNC file to either VCarve or 3D, Please can you tell me, What is the best way to do it and what programme will achieve that?
Thank you

[AboveCreations]

I am not sure I can be of any help. Vector correcting can be overwhelming when a file is imported sometimes. As others have said, it is just a matter of going into 'node edit' and correcting them. I've got pretty accumstomed to correcting with node edit, that I rarely need the validator. Also, as others have said, bitmaps are files that are pixels... not vectors (or lines). You must convert a bitmap to vectors (lines) before you can use them in vcarve toolpaths. I think in order to try and help you, please answer the question that a few others have asked you and you never replied to it. As far as that truck you show in the first post, what are you trying to achieve with it? Are you wanting to vcarve it with a v-bit or just trace it? THAT will make a difference on how to proceed on node edit. So reply and tell us what are you trying to achieve as a final product?

[wannabecnc]

Hi, Above Creations,

Thank you for your input. My apologies for not answering the previously asked questions.
Okay, I want to V-Carve the pickup truck, and for the carve to be about 2.5 mm deep. My material will be 370 mm x 370 mm and 10 mm thick.
As you can probably see, I'm a novice with CNC and CNC software, so please bear with me, and for asking what might seem like dumb questions.
At the tool path stage, how can I be sure the tool will carve 2.5 mm deep? Is it best to add a flat depth or leave that blank?
With regards to node editing, I've seen a couple of guys on Youtube doing a very good job on the subject, but it seems that some of the things I get are not included in what those guys were teaching. What is the best approach to resolve node editing issues?
Also, why is it that I had so many intersections and overlaps all in one area? Again I have seen guys on Youtube editing imported files and they might have 30, or 70 or so editing issues, which is what made me think that I had done something wrong, or possibly the file was corrupt or something.
I know there are some very talented CNC people out there, and many are on this Vectric Forum, to whom I appreciate for all of the help provided so far, So, Thank you.
Please can someone tell me of anyone on Youtube or online somewhere that has a detailed tutorial regarding " Node Editing " and general file editing?
My goal really is to be able to be given a photo of whatever and convert it into a file that is suitable for CNC V-Carving, 2.5D and when I'm confident enough, 3D also.
Thank you all for your time and consideration in my quest to conquer File and Node Editing.

Kind regards,
Michael

[Adrian]

It would be best to start with simpler projects IMO. Node editing a set of vectors like that would challenge many experienced users. Don't fall into the trap of thinking node editing is the only way either. There are a series of vector interaction tools, cutting tools, clearing tools etc all of which are extremely useful when tidying up vectors that weren't created for CNC machining.

v-carve toolpaths cut to a depth that is combination of the distance between the inner and outer vectors in the selection and the angle of the bit. A 60 degree bit will cut deeper than a 90 degree bit. Vectors further apart will cut deeper. Flat depth will limit the depth of cut but the look of the cut will be different if you're hitting the flat depth a lot.

As to why there are so many intersections etc it all depends on the file. Vector files that are created for artwork rather than CNC can be a real "mess" as there is no issues with them having overlaps, intersections etc as the human eye doesn't see them and t-shirt printers don't care either.

Being able to go from a photo to v-carving, 3D etc is probably the most difficult skill there is to learn and many never will as it requires a high level of artistic ability to interpret the picture and the way it would look CNC'ed.

The photovcarve toolpath is the closest you'll get to a "software does it for you approach" but that can still require a lot of setup especially on the finishing side of things.

For tutorials it's always best to work your way through the ones that Vectric have (look on the Help menu) as they are created with the current versions of the software and are made by people who know what they are doing.

There are some great tutorials on YouTube (mainly from people who work closely with Vectric) but there are some truly appalling ones from people who have no real idea of what they are doing plus many more made with old versions of the software which can be confusing to a new user.

[sharkcutup]

wannabecnc I have sent you a private message.

Sharkcutup

[wannabecnc]

Hi Sharkcutup and Adrian,

Thank you so much for your comments and input, they are very much appreciated.
Sharkcutup, I have responded to your PM. Kind regards.
Adrian, You mentioned other tools that help in the editing process, Can you tell me about them and how they will help me, please?
I thought this pickup truck was a simple drawing, but I guess I was wrong. I have done a few projects in editing and succeeded, I'm not certain if my success was Very good, Good or just Fair, but I managed to remove the editing concerns and the carve worked, That's a start I would say.
Where can I get SVG or other good file types made for CNC? It makes sense that the ones for T-Shirts etc wouldn't be concerned about the level of editing as is for CNC.
Do you think that if the drawing lines of a potential project were to be wider, would that make any difference to the cut depth? I can see that a VBit would only go to the boundaries between two lines, but on a single line, it seems that it's not going to go too deep, with the theory of how the Vbit seems to operate.

Thank you once again guys

Kind regards,

Michael

[Adrian]

For a single line you would need to use the profile toolpath set to be On the line rather than the v-carve toolpath which requires two closed lines to work.

With the profile toolpath the depth is controlled by the cut depth field at the top of the toolpath form.

The other tools that are useful when cleaning up vectors are in the Edit Objects section of the Drawing tab. The ones I use most often are the first five on the 2nd row. Weld, Subtract, Overlap, Trim, Interactive Trim.

I use the four join tools on the bottom row continuously as well.

Best place to get CNC ready files used to be VectorArt but they closed a while ago. You can still get their three volume collection 2nd hand occasionally.

I generally make all my own files by hand tracing or from customers who know how to create CNC ready files so I don't have any real experience these days of good places to get files from. Hopefully others do.

The pickup truck is a pretty simple drawing but the issues aren't in how simple the subject is to the eye rather than they way it's been created.

[AboveCreations]

I think Adrian explained it well in both of his posts. I also think that you are trying to jump from 2nd grade to 12th grade in the levels of Vcarve learning. When I got my first CNC machine many years ago, I started with very simple carving projects mostly on vectric website and few others. I tried to analyze as much as I could and of course changed the toolpaths to be more appropriate to my machine when practicing. Node editing came much later since it can be very confusing and overwhelming, depending on the bitmap.

A few things to think about when importing any bitmap picture is the quality of the bitmap. If the picture wasn't created with a very high quality, it will never convert very well to vectors. Also, when importing a bitmap in vcarve, I try to stay away from color pictures. Why? Because all that is doing is creating more nodes and intersections. The more the colors, the worse. If the bitmap is a very high quality picture, you could try to convert it to grayscale. Then import it and hope you get better results. There is no sure way to convert all pictures and it sometimes is a matter of trial and error. As we have said prior, a bitmap picture is made of pixels. Within that picture of pixels, if the structure of the pictures isn't high quality and complete (connecting when converted), it will convert to vectors that don't match the picture, so you have to edit the nodes to make them sound. Incidently, this is all referring to 2D pictures/bitmaps and toolpaths. 3D modeling and carving is something more advanced.

Perhaps some of this is still confusing... my best advice is as Adrian said, stick with more simple, easy projects and build and graduate their levels of learning first. Then move to something a litttle harder as you progress.

[AboveCreations]

To try to help you out a little more, can you direct me to the url where you got the truck picture (or upload the picture here). Some of us could take a look at it and let you know if it is a bad choice to convert to vectors. Possibly there is something better, or perhaps something that can be done to the picture to improve its quality. Just throwing that out there... up to you. I realize this wouldn't teach you node editing any more than your own practice. But sometimes a little knowledge of the original bitmap before conversion can be a deal breaker on conversion or not.

[wannabecnc]

Hi Abovecreations,

Thank you for your reply and input, it's very much appreciated.
I will attach the pics of the pickup truck and also the one that was in motion with the intersections and overlaps.
I agree, maybe I have tried to start way up the ladder and should have used the first rungs to start with.
I thought the pickup picture was a simple one, but maybe not when it comes to the editing software.
I have uploaded three pics, One is of the original picture of the truck, the second is the line drawing into an SVG and the third is the Vectric Validator editing in progress picture. Hopefully, you may be able to tell me if I was being too optimistic.
I certainly didn't realise that editing some parts would cause issues in other areas. I really need to learn exactly what each colour node is for and what it can do, along with the ways to avoid stuffing up other parts of the editing.
Thank you once again for your kind help.

Kind regards,

Michael