pricing

This forum is for general discussion regarding VCarve Pro
raccoontom
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:20 am
Model of CNC Machine: Shark HD510

pricing

Post by raccoontom »

Hello.
I am a relatively new user, less than 6 months. I have already been asked to produce a very large quantity (200) of the attached. Total machining time is 29 minutes. Wood will be furnished by the customer. Any advice/suggestions on accepting/creating/performing this order. I have not made a test piece, but I believe the creating is pretty much done!
Tia,
Tom
Attachments
Screenshot 2021-08-04 054812.jpg

User avatar
scottp55
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 11:30 am
Model of CNC Machine: ShopbotDesktop 5.5"Z/spindle/VCP11.5
Location: Kennebunkport, Maine, US

Re: pricing

Post by scottp55 »

Probably best to post the entire .crv file so people can see tool settings and cut strategy.
It doesn't appear to have any copyrighted material, so you can attach it in this thread.
Often dedicated jigging can cut setup times substantially on production items too.
Have you seen the wood to be supplied, any prep work done before cutting by you needs to be included.
Trial runs to get accurate scale factor is a must, showing the proto to the customer for a written approval
by customer as far a quality is usually a must.
Keep careful track of Total times to jig,change bits,any finish work, etc. start to finish is important.
The little things can change it from profitable to a loss.
scott
I've learned my lesson well. You can't please everyone,so you have to please yourself
R.N.

User avatar
Tex_Lawrence
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 932
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:30 am
Model of CNC Machine: Shapeoko3XXL; JTech7W; V-CarvePro 11.554
Location: Dayton, Texas (Don't Mess With My Texas!)

Re: pricing

Post by Tex_Lawrence »

raccoontom wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:49 am
I have not made a test piece, but I believe the creating is pretty much done!
Whoa! I wish I had a dollar for every time I used to say that! :D Add my 2cents; if you just want to practice your procedures, then you don't have to worry about profit. This is a good way to do that.

Like Scott says, without the CRV file, there's no way to know why that piece should take 1/2 hour to produce. I'll charge $20US per hour for production machining after I've optimized everything. The more time you spend cleaning up on your machine; the less time you spend finishing with sandpaper and other tools.

There's no way I would try to sell 200 of anything without producing 10 prototypes, one at a time, with the "material" furnished sight unseen by the customer. You'll get burned every time.
Tex — Crooked Wood Products
Now there's a man with an open mind – you can feel the breeze from here.

User avatar
scottp55
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 4713
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 11:30 am
Model of CNC Machine: ShopbotDesktop 5.5"Z/spindle/VCP11.5
Location: Kennebunkport, Maine, US

Re: pricing

Post by scottp55 »

Here's another thread with a few of the variables;
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35507&p=261239&hili ... ng#p261239
Most certainly not a sin to turn a job down after submitting a proto and a price.
Pricing has many variables...and you always learn the Hard Way!
Half up front is a good indication of the customer sometimes,
some customers will Never be pleased though no matter what your price.
I turned them down usually in the past.

Don't underprice yourself!
Or you could make more money at McDonalds with no outlay(starting wage is $14 an hour here).
I've learned my lesson well. You can't please everyone,so you have to please yourself
R.N.

User avatar
dealguy11
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 2464
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:52 pm
Model of CNC Machine: Anderson Selexx 510
Location: Henryville, PA

Re: pricing

Post by dealguy11 »

Can't tell you what the right price is, but I know many production shops ask $75/hour and up for machining time. Does that sound like a lot? Remember you're covering depreciation, insurance, worn bits, electricity, and your time monitoring, loading and unloading the machine. Oh, and profit. What about your design time? What is your time worth? I recognize that makes a 29 minute part pretty expensive. Should that part really take 29 minutes? Can't tell.
Steve Godding
Not all who wander (or wonder) are lost

User avatar
Leo
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 4084
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:02 am
Model of CNC Machine: 1300 x 1300 x 254 Chinese Made
Location: East Freetown, Ma.
Contact:

Re: pricing

Post by Leo »

As I am a manufacturing engineer, my job was and will always be, how can I make it more efficiently. Part of my job was costing a job.

29 minutes is NOT the entire amount of time to make it.

Selecting the material
Programming the job
GETTING the material
Cutting the material to size
Putting the material on the machine
Running EACH toolpath
Changing the cutter
Running another toolpath
REPEAT - REPEAT - - - -
Remove from machine
sanding
Add more steps as needed -----

Each step has a time associated with it. It may be 1 minute or it may be 2 minutes or 3 or 4 -- but they ALL add up and they are ALL a piece of the time to do the job. This is called the process.

Then there is the cost of the material - INCLUDING waste. There should always be a markup on the material. Markup times 2 is pretty common

There is ALWAYS overhead cost - ELECTRICITY is not free - neither is rent, property taxes - etc

LABOR - is most often forgotten. What we do is PROFESSIONAL. We are not carpenters - we are professional craftsmen. I like to be sure that people KNOW, that a handyman IS in fact a VERY knowledgeable and VERY HIGHLY skilled individual. A plumber, electrician or a technician get paid pretty well for their expertise. So should we!! A labor rate of $50 - $100 dollars per hour is NOT unreasonable.

So - in industry pricing is done this way

(Labor * 2 Overhead) + Labor + marked up materials = COST

Cost + Profit = Sell price

NOW = Sell price should NEVER be below MARKET VALUE.

As hobbyists we are HORRIBLE at setting a price.

It is very easy to be very busy and not make much money - BUT - it is not so easy to be busy and make money.
Imagine the Possibilities of a Creative mind, combined with the functionality of CNC

User avatar
dealguy11
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 2464
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:52 pm
Model of CNC Machine: Anderson Selexx 510
Location: Henryville, PA

Re: pricing

Post by dealguy11 »

Leo said: "It is very easy to be very busy and not make much money - BUT - it is not so easy to be busy and make money."

Amen to that
Steve Godding
Not all who wander (or wonder) are lost

User avatar
Rcnewcomb
Vectric Archimage
Posts: 5887
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:54 am
Model of CNC Machine: 24x36 GCnC/WinCNC with ATC
Location: San Jose, California, USA
Contact:

Re: pricing

Post by Rcnewcomb »

Here are things I've earned to think about...
Wood will be furnished by the customer.
Does this mean you have to reimburse them for material on parts that are cut out of spec? (wrong XYZ zero, material moved while cutting, wrong bit for the toolpath, power loss while cutting, etc.)

What about variation on thickness?
What about knots or pitch pockets?
Warped boards?
Boards out of square?
- Randall Newcomb
10 fingers in, 10 fingers out, another good day in the shop

raccoontom
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:20 am
Model of CNC Machine: Shark HD510

Re: pricing

Post by raccoontom »

Thanks guys for all of the great responses. Like I said, I am pretty new at this. I'm not doing this for a business just a hobby, at least for now. (I did create a few signs for my sub division with the agreement that this would cover my annual dues for the year, so 300$.) I'm just south of 63 years old, so I may get more serious about the business end in a few years. I am going to work on my .crv file to optimize it as much as I can, then I'll repost.
For the potential customer, I will create one piece to show him, and ask him to bring me ten pieces of the wood he wants to use. I will cut them keeping track of total time. Then I think I will be in a better position to estimate total cost and schedule.
Thanks again and I'll return to this soon.

User avatar
Leo
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 4084
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:02 am
Model of CNC Machine: 1300 x 1300 x 254 Chinese Made
Location: East Freetown, Ma.
Contact:

Re: pricing

Post by Leo »

I am just north of 67 and I do this as a retirement side income. It covers the cost of my shop expenses plus a little extra. I LOVE doing it.

Still it's too doggone easy to underprice. That doesn't really help anyone. If at some point you decide to "make money" at it raising your price to something more reasonable is difficult. Lowering an overpriced item is a lot easier.

You don't need to be "in business" to start learning about pricing.
Imagine the Possibilities of a Creative mind, combined with the functionality of CNC

Barry Anderson
Vectric Craftsman
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:08 am
Model of CNC Machine: Shark

Re: pricing

Post by Barry Anderson »

This is a great discussion. I am retired, and use my CNC machines for extra income. I generally figure $50 per hour. When doing large jobs of multiple pieces, it helps me having 2 machines running at the same time. Also doing some of the sanding while the next piece is running helps maximize my time. I like the suggestion to have the potential customer furnish 10 pieces for "test" runs. I often use cutoffs laying around the shop to cut samples to get a true cut time. This has helped me tremendously. I also like the thought of who is responsible for mis-cuts. I usually ask the customer to supply extra material to cover this. Pricing has always been an issue. I agree greatly with Leo's post. We are at least semi-professionals. And should be compensated for it. When I first started in woodworking I was turning bowls. I had someone give me 2 pieces of advice that I have not forgotten: 1. You can't make money turning bowls. Not many folks are willing to pay what it would take for the turner to make a profit. 2. If you get every job you bid, you are not charging enough. If you don't get any, you are charging too much. I think a lot of it depends on the market area you are in. And how many people are charging just enough to pay for materials. But all of the things listed in an earlier post have to be considered. Along with the cost of your equipment.
One of the best parts of my CNC experience is this forum. Thanks to all who ask questions, and to those who are way smarter than me who answer them. May you all be blessed today.
Barry

User avatar
rscrawford
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 1102
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:49 pm
Model of CNC Machine: CAMaster Cobra 408 ATC, ShopSabre IS408
Location: Wetaskiwin, Alberta
Contact:

Re: pricing

Post by rscrawford »

When figuring out a price, you also have to consider the machine you are using.

You can't have the same hourly rate running an industrial ATC with vacuum hold down versus a hobby grade Shark. On the former, with 3 tool changes, that part will take 5 minutes. On the latter, with 3 tool changes, that part will take 45 minutes. But the end product is the same. Do you charge 9 times as much just because your machinery is hobby grade and slower?!
Russell Crawford
http://www.cherryleaf-rustle.com

User avatar
JoeBlow
Vectric Craftsman
Posts: 135
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:19 am
Model of CNC Machine: AxiomAR6Pro

Re: pricing

Post by JoeBlow »

Leo wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 pm
What we do is PROFESSIONAL. We are not carpenters - we are professional craftsmen.
Ouch!

I do so dislike drama and tangential comments on forums, but can not let this one slide without comment. I have been on this forum long enough to believe no insult was intended, but really!

I am a 35 year PROFESSIONAL Carpenter and a highly skilled Craftsman. I take tremendous pride knowing I have made a very good life for myself and family and am part of a profession with far reaching historical roots.

I find it exceptionally insulting when any Joe out there with a hammer and a stick of wood in his hands thinks he is a carpenter!

By the way, the home you live in was built by a Professional Carpenter.

Patrick Coady, Carpenter

Rant over......
Patrick

The hurrier I go, the behinder I get

Salmon's lair
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:32 pm
Model of CNC Machine: Shopbot PRS Alpha 120-60

Re: pricing

Post by Salmon's lair »

I agree with all of the above
.

BUT, it all depends on the customers expectations, the only way to find out is make a sample. It will give you
and the customer a good meeting point.

User avatar
Leo
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 4084
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:02 am
Model of CNC Machine: 1300 x 1300 x 254 Chinese Made
Location: East Freetown, Ma.
Contact:

Re: pricing

Post by Leo »

JoeBlow wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:56 pm
Leo wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:10 pm
What we do is PROFESSIONAL. We are not carpenters - we are professional craftsmen.
Ouch!

I am a 35 year PROFESSIONAL Carpenter and a highly skilled Craftsman. I take tremendous pride knowing I have made a very good life for myself and family and am part of a profession with far reaching historical roots.
Please accept my apology. :oops:

The intent was not to degrade a professional carpenter, but rather to emphasis that the work created by a hobbyist is in face professional and not to be minimized because we do it in out garage on a hobby machine.

I definitely blew it in that bad statement. I am certainly NOT a professional work smith.
Imagine the Possibilities of a Creative mind, combined with the functionality of CNC

Post Reply