Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

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Mikehell
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Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Mikehell »

Most of my experience is on larger, more powerful machines like ShopBot, Gerber, etc. Looking to get a small machine for home. Shapeoko is towards the top of my list. However, I can't seem to find any data as to how fast I can reasonably cut.

Downloaded their free software. The numbers seem way off to what I'm used to, and everything I've ever been taught or learned through experience. I understand that these type machines aren't going to be able to plow through at 300ipm at full depth. But still...

Example:
MDF with a typical 1/4" 2-flute upcut bit I'd run .25 deep passes at 14,000 RPM and go at around 160ipm (2.8ips) giving me a chipload of. 006

The Shapoko defaults for MDF with 1/4" bit are
18,000 RPM
100ipm feed
Pass depth .06"

I can see there being differences between machines, and understand that the motors on hobby machines are tiny, but spinning 18k at an inch and a half per second seems like it would burn the crap out of my bits?!?! And, will it really take 9 passes at 1.5ips to cut through MDF? How fast could I reasonably cut through MDF at full bit depth (1/4") with a 1/4" bit (onsrud 52-200 series)?

Or should I skip it and save a bunch more money for a "real" machine?

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Adrian »

18,000rpm is probably the slowest the router can run at. That's usually the case with the low end machines that they can't run the router/spindle slow enough to get the right chipload for the feed speeds they use.

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Mikehell »

Adrian wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:12 pm
18,000rpm is probably the slowest the router can run at. That's usually the case with the low end machines that they can't run the router/spindle slow enough to get the right chipload for the feed speeds they use.
That's what I was thinking, but the Makita and DeWalt routers used should be able to spin at 10k. If your speed is faster, should you not feed faster, not slower? Or is 1.5ips maxing out the top speed of the servos? Are they taking really shallow passes with the idea of "well, the cut is so shallow, there ain't nuthin' to burn"?

Would a cheap spindle work better on one of these if it could be set to much lower RPMs?

What's the top speed of the XY motors on these things?

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Rcnewcomb »

Most of my experience is on larger, more powerful machines like ShopBot, Gerber, etc. Looking to get a small machine for home.
Have you considered looking for a used ShopBot Desktop/Max or a CAMaster Stinger 1?
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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by TReischl »

OK. You have discovered one of my pet peeves about how a lot of these machines are being sold. Nice website, lots of marketing hype, very little actual information. Nema 23 steppers. But no specs as to WHICH Nema 23 stepper, they come in different powers.

Interestingly I have yet to burn a bit unless I flat out stop it and let it sit there spinning. I don't run a shapeoko but I have cut things at a slow speed on my old machine that did about 70 IPM max. No burning even though the router was running at 25K RPM.

IMHO all that happens when you cannot go fast enough, or slow the spindle down enough is create dust instead of chips and wear out the tool faster. That said, I did a lot of cutting with a 1/4 inch bit before I figured it needed to be replaced. Ever notice that it is hard to find information on how long the bit will last if you do NOT run it at recommended speeds/feeds? Instead all we hear is "If you do not run your bit at recommended speed it will wear out faster." Ok, does that mean it will cut 40,000 lineal feet instead of 50,000 lineal feet? Beats me.
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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Tex_Lawrence »

Carbide3D has an active forum where this kind of discussion can get real answers relative to that machine.

I cut lots of stuff with a Shapeoko. You can too.
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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by martin54 »

Don't forget that hobby machines are not built the same way as Industrial type machines, machine speeds, depth of cut etc are down to factors like machine construction as well as the motors used. :lol: :lol:
Comes down to what you want the machine for, what your expecting from it performance wise & what sort of size machine are you looking for?

You might be better off with a second user machine as Randall has suggested, obviously you need to take a bit of care with what you buy but one of the advantages is that if you decide you need a bigger machine in the future you can probably sell your machine on for pretty much what you paid for it :lol: :lol

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by cg3xxl »

Got my Shapeoko 3 in Feb. Got it for a hobby and doing personal projects and not for making a living with it. However several users on their forum use the machines in small commercial shops.

Yes the default feed & speeds are low. They keep it very conservative as their main clientele are mostly beginners in CNC. (That is what I am.) Carbide 3D does this to help the beginners have the greatest chance of success starting off. I have never burnt up a bit with their defaults but I now adjust them up quite a bit. You can easily change the default S&F's and they suggest you do just that after testing to see what works best. The machines max feed rate is somewhere around 196ipm. It is ridged enough to cut aluminum and other no-ferrous metals. But it is not a commercial machine. If you are expect to make full depth cuts and 300ipm then this is not the machine for that. This is a machine to use at a hobby pace, not at full blown production levels where every second is money.

Of the trim routers used, only the DeWalt cannot get down to 10,000 RPM. The makita and their own re-branded version of the makita can go from 10,000 to 30,000 RPM. Several users have exchanged the trim routers for true spindles in the 800w - 2.2KW category.

As Tex has said there is a very active user forum with a lot of information. The customer service is excellent helping to get the machine up and running and getting any issues worked out. Hope this helps give you a little more insight from a user of the shapeoko.

Craig

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Mikehell »

Rcnewcomb wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:47 pm
Most of my experience is on larger, more powerful machines like ShopBot, Gerber, etc. Looking to get a small machine for home.
Have you considered looking for a used ShopBot Desktop/Max or a CAMaster Stinger 1?
Heck yeah. Out of my budget though, since this is just for fun. There's a ShopBot Buddy on Craigslist for $5k that looks real tempting though.

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by scottp55 »

Buddy for 3K also
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showth ... d-for-sale
...lot's of options, but main thing for me would NOT be speed when scaling down....
It would be similar quality of finished product.
Me...I'd almost immediately go to 1/2D bit passes, and then move up from there if I could for similar quality. Don't expect same quality and feeds for half the cost(?) (to a large extent, you get what you pay for)
Repeatability and accuracy for a home machine would seem to be key. (but I'm biased towards quality of cut)
You just can't expect similar speeds with the rigidity of machine dropped for cost considerations.
Dropping feeds/speeds to maintain quality of cut seems to me a given...never mind sheet good hold-down.
You can't expect to drop price and get the same quality machine usually.
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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by martin54 »

Mikehell wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:11 pm
Rcnewcomb wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:47 pm
Most of my experience is on larger, more powerful machines like ShopBot, Gerber, etc. Looking to get a small machine for home.
Have you considered looking for a used ShopBot Desktop/Max or a CAMaster Stinger 1?
Heck yeah. Out of my budget though, since this is just for fun. There's a ShopBot Buddy on Craigslist for $5k that looks real tempting though.
Does your skill set extend to repairing/rebuilding a used machine? Reason for asking is because you mentioned Gerber in your original post. OK so I was lucky but I picked up an old Gerber system 48 for basically scrap money. Old control system was fried buut the machine was basically sound mechanically. Built a new controlbox for it using quality components so it wasn't cheap but I could actually have had it back up & running at a fraction of what I spent.
Just another option for you to think about if that is something you are able to do & of course are happy to spend the time doing :lol: :lol: :lol:
Actually in the process of doing the same thing with an old Denford Triac Mill that I picket up for less than scrap money :lol: :lol:

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by alfredom »

I had the Shapeoko for 6 months now and my main complain is the flimsy grooved belt system that is not always precise, often in the finishing passes you see the jumping of the V wheels over the grain of dust that build up on the aluminum rails and on the wheels themselves, that means often a lot of sanding. Precision and repeatability is often an issue for me. I am not a real expert on those machine, but I have a strong base in mats and in how they should work, also in 3D and vector graphics.
There is a new machine coming out this month or next month that is about the same price of the shapeoko, but uses bearings and acme screws for the moving around, I don't know anything about it but looks interesting the machine is call Onefinity and this is their website: https://www.onefinitycnc.com/

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Mikehell »

martin54 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:37 pm
Mikehell wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:11 pm
Rcnewcomb wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 9:47 pm


Have you considered looking for a used ShopBot Desktop/Max or a CAMaster Stinger 1?
Heck yeah. Out of my budget though, since this is just for fun. There's a ShopBot Buddy on Craigslist for $5k that looks real tempting though.
Does your skill set extend to repairing/rebuilding a used machine? Reason for asking is because you mentioned Gerber in your original post. OK so I was lucky but I picked up an old Gerber system 48 for basically scrap money. Old control system was fried buut the machine was basically sound mechanically. Built a new controlbox for it using quality components so it wasn't cheap but I could actually have had it back up & running at a fraction of what I spent.
Just another option for you to think about if that is something you are able to do & of course are happy to spend the time doing :lol: :lol: :lol:
Actually in the process of doing the same thing with an old Denford Triac Mill that I picket up for less than scrap money :lol: :lol:
I'm sure I'd be able to get an old obsolete machine working. Hell, I got a Gerber Sabre working with its own p.o.s. Gerber controller. Been able to get cheap Chinese 3040 CNCs working via parallel port. My problem with something of the nature you talk about is room to put the thing. Space is very limited for me.

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Mikehell »

martin54 wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:47 am
Don't forget that hobby machines are not built the same way as Industrial type machines, machine speeds, depth of cut etc are down to factors like machine construction as well as the motors used. :lol: :lol:
Comes down to what you want the machine for, what your expecting from it performance wise & what sort of size machine are you looking for?

You might be better off with a second user machine as Randall has suggested, obviously you need to take a bit of care with what you buy but one of the advantages is that if you decide you need a bigger machine in the future you can probably sell your machine on for pretty much what you paid for it :lol: :lol
I hear ya. I know that a cheaper CNC like an X-carve, shapeoko, mill right, etc won't be a ShopBot. I have access to a ShopBot PRS Alpha 96 at a local makerspace. Just looking for something for home that's a few steps up from my China 3040. Something I can set running on a cut in the garage, go in and watch some TV. I would prefer to get one that doesn't have that sensor on it that senses when you've left the room and messes up when said sensor is tripped. :)

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Re: Contemplating buying a Shapoko, but their speed/feed defaults make no sense.

Post by Tex_Lawrence »

Mikehell wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:31 pm
I would prefer to get one that doesn't have that sensor on it that senses when you've left the room and messes up when said sensor is tripped. :)
They don't make one of those, and it sure isn't a Shapeoko (as much as I like mine.) It makes some sense to be around, but I know what you're after; me, too! :D
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