Fine Engraving

[Rburke]

Concerning v-carve bits and conical engraving bits - Do they have different applications?

[Xxray]

Answer can be yes or no.

Sometimes they can do the same things, vbits are often not the best choice for very fine detail but of course are more robust. So you would have to factor the level of detail you want and what material you are using. Diamond drag bits are often superior to both, but if you are looking for any sort of depth then you'd need a rotary bit.

[kaetamer]

What's the difference between them?

[JoeM]

This is just my opinion. I don't do engraving, I do a lot of v-carving. Someone else might say potayto potahto...

There are different designs by different makers so not all v-carving bits look the same. Some companies get creative and call their bits v-carving engraving bits. They'd call them CNC V-Carving Engraving Car Washing Back Rubbing Love You Long Time bits if they thought it would make them sell faster. You can usually tell just by looking at the bit itself. Is it made to cut on the bottom, or on the sides?

This is an engraving bit. Check out the edges. It's not made for cutting. If you do use it for cutting, it will only cut on the one lip, and that lip isn't a true cutting lip with a sharp edge and back relief. It's made so that flat spot on the bottom engraves a mark on something hard, not cuts a line in something soft. Plunge this bit full depth and try to carve something, watch it chatter or break.

This is a V-Bit. Like other router bits or endmills, it is made to cut. It has multiple flutes, each one with a sharp edge cutting edge with a proper relief angle. You can plunge this bit the depth of the cutter and with the proper feed you can carve out a deep V with clean edges.

[Xxray]

Nice summary Joe, funny too.

Since the OP is apparently after fine detail, he of course would not want to plunge a vbit into material. They are capable of surprising detail if good and sharp, but the deeper you go the more detail you lose. Alot depends on size of a project too for detail ,,, If you v-carved a 2" letter A, for example, and plunged in .4" or something, it would look like a blob. But if you just went .015 it would be well defined, and an "engraving bit" may easily be up to that task. Conversely, if the letter was 12", then you can get away with going deeper with a vbit without losing detail, but you wouldn't want to try it with an engraving bit.

I sometimes use engraving bits for fine detail work in painted plexiglas where my goal is pretty much to bust through the paint and just scratch the plexi, tip will break with the greatest of ease if run too deep or fast, but they can create a hair thin line. I have had mixed results, from superb to terrible.
My suggestion is to resist the temptation to get the 8 for $12 packs you see on ebay and amazon, instead get them from a reputable place like precisebits.com.

Theirs will still snap of course if pushed beyond their limits, but do a great job when used properly.

Drag bits, as I said, can also be a great option with great detail and much less fragile than engraving bits, but they are made to literally scratch a hard surface and not much more.

[scottp55]

Potaytoe:)
All done with .25"Onsrud conicals with no roughing.
Pays to be ignorant and not know you're supposed to do things that way.
Play for yourself and learn.
scott

[Xxray]

A quality conical can do detailed work in soft wood, no doubt.

Don't see the point myself when there is a specific tool [tapered ball nose] to do 3D work and is far more robust, and are available with tips sizes of 1/32 maybe even less, which would rival the point of an engraving bit.
But you can't argue with successful results, nice work Scott as usual, I wish you continued success if you keep going that route. My guess is most guys would quickly snap the tip and see $20 flushed down the tubes, but you are right, trial & error often pays off and should not be discouraged.

[Rburke]

If you are trying to engrave .1 to .2" letters in hard maple @.014 to .016" deep, what would be your choice? I have been using a v-carve system from Amana which uses inserts in a .5" base (P# RC-1076). Mostly I am running 30 degree angle with .005 or .010" tips at 18000 rpm and 30 ipm. Not sure if that is ideal but does pretty well for what I am doing. The problem is the inserts are +$20 and I have found no one so far that can sharpen them accurately. I bought an extra base to ship with the inserts to make it easier but still no dice. They come back at different angles and tip widths. I have also tried one conical engraving bit from Amana (P# 45783). This one seems to leave "fuzzies" on the letter edges no matter how I adjust feeds and speeds. I have ran it anywhere from 6000 rpm to 18000 rpm in combo with feed rates from 24 ipm to 35 ipm. All about the same results. Maybe I am dealing with a damaged bit but looking at it under a loop it looks O.K. A little wear I guess. Pretty limited experience at this point with various bit types and manufacturers for this application. Any observations on this would really be appreciated.

[Makingtoothpicks]

I use Amana bits also. I have that same V-Carve insert set. I have broken a few. Now I do not
break them anymore as I have learned what I can and cannot do with them. I now work from
slow to a little faster in steps. I have some of there Ball-nose bits they work great so far.I
have not broken one yet. Xxray on the Amana web site they list the Ball nose as a conical
tapered bit. I don't see them being different.

Don

[Xxray]

Amana describes them as "Ball Nose (Conical Ball) Solid Carbide Spiral CNC 2D/3D Carving Tapered and Straight ZrN Coated Up-Cut Router Bits", I think its a matter of terminology and perhaps some slight keyword spamming because a tapered ballnose endmill and a conical engraver are 2 very different and distinct tools for different and distinct purposes, though some may overlap.
"Conical" far as I am aware as applied to router bits is a reference to shape, and can be subject to various interpretations.

[Rburke]

Have y'all found anyone that can accurately sharpen the insert blades for the Amana system? So far, maybe from beginners luck, I haven't broke any inserts but I am beginning to build a collection of dull ones.

[Rburke]

I am beginning to wonder if the "conical" engraving bits with one cutting edge is a good choice for engraving .1 to .2" letters. They seem to cause the most fuzzies. Recently I read that they are not really made for side cutting only engraving the surface. Don't know if that is true since I have been seeing the work some have posted here, being good enough to include bit info. A little confusing. Trying to to invest to much in experimenting with different bits. No sense in reinventing the wheel.

[Rburke]

That was letter dimensions, not depth. The depth is .014 to .016".

[glenninvb]

Rburke,
I use these standard style carbide conical engraving bits for aluminum, brass, sterling, acrylic and hardwoods. The tough tip style bits are recommended for much harder materials including tool steel, Inconel, stainless, Hastelloy, etc. although slower feeds and coolant recommended.

I run the standard conical half rounds at 10-20000 rpm and just set feed @100 ipm although never reach on tiny lettering. Depending on tip size and depth they are capable of very fine detail and I've never broke one. It's exactly what they are made for.

I've used other brands as well with similar results, the tips cut during a straight plunge due to the offset geometry...I think for fine and deep rotary engraving, they are hard to beat. Never had fuzzy issues but always cut hardwood when cutting wood.

http://www.2linc.com/engraving_tools_conical.htm

[glenninvb]

Potaytoe:)
All done with .25"Onsrud conicals with no roughing.
Pays to be ignorant and not know you're supposed to do things that way.
Play for yourself and learn.
scott

Pretty work!...