I would pay to have fixed

I would pay to have fixed

Postby Jefoni » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:07 pm

I want so bad to be able to do cnc machining, but maybe it is just too complex for me. SO I started with a 6040 Chinese machine just to see if this hobby was for me. I LOVE IT, BUT, I am having issues. Since day one, on SOME things I want to cut, the machine stalls. It just starts to make a grinding / binding noise, then starts to move properly again however, it is way off course. I have tinkered with motor tuning, feeds and speeds of my VECTRIC software and I can't fix it. Sometimes I will cut an entire project with NO issues, and other times I cant get thru one piece. Not sure how many know of the VECTRIC free project called the "BLING BOX". I cut the sides and bottom out PERFECTLY. Now I am trying to cut the top. After 3 failed attempts, I set my speed in my VECTRIC software tool path to 2200 mm per minute and plunge to 700 per minute. I ran the entire tool path in thin air with NO WOOD, and it ran the whole thing perfect. I put a piece of pine on the machine, and it stalled on line 336. NEVER stalls on the same point. There seems to be NO consistency to when it will do it.

ANY IDEAS? I would pay someone to fly to Arizona and fix this problem. I want to buy a new 48x96 machine, but if I cant get the little one to work why spend 20K on a big one right??

Anyway, below are my specs, and I have also attached my .xml file. This is ALL the info I know, so if you start asking me about screws, pitches, frequencies etc, I will be lost. One thing I will tell you is the MFG told me to set the machine in mach 3 up like this:

Steps: 640
Velocity: 2500 XY 800 Z
Accel: 200 XY 150 Z

When I set Steps to 640 everything is doubled. I run the step calculator in Mach 3 and it says to set steps to 320 so I did.

SPECS:
Dell Computer running windows XP
ETHERNET SMOOTH STEPPER
Chinese 6040z + S65J
VFD SPindle usually run at 300khz or 18000 rpm

.XML attached

Any help and patience would be appreciated, and if the help is I am over my head, so be it. I just gotta know cause it has been driving me nuts for 6 months now.
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby Leo » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:21 pm

What is happening to your machine is called "loosing steps".

That is when the axis is not moving - or moving at a speed slower than the computer is telling it to move. To my knowledge there is no damage being done to the machine.

I have no idea what the metric speeds are in reference to the American speeds. I run my machine in IPM - Inches Per Minute. I don't know if you are going fast or going slow.

LUBRICATION - and CLEANING, the slides and axis screws is my BIGGEST friend.

Generally, before I do a project I will clean the slides and screws and lubricate with a dry silicon spray. Next I will manually run the slides to their full extent - then I home out the machine.

After that I will run the project.

My machine is 12 years old and pretty finiky.

Could you describe the cutter and depths of cut and what kind of wood you are cutting.
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby garylmast » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:34 pm

Check the slide bearings. My old machine and the one I using now was doing the same problem. I took the Spindle off to check the mount for the thread and one of the bearings was defective. In fact the new set is going to be delivered by DHL tomorrow. On my old machine, the slide bearing for the "x" motion turned out to be bad. When I replaced the bearings, it worked great. Gary
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby Xxray » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:47 pm

One of the many drawbacks of buying a Chinese machine is lack of support, so you really cannot compare this machine with one you could buy here, outfits like cammaster & shopbot and a few others are renowned for their support. I understand about budgets and temptations to get things cheap, but you will always get what you pay for and this is a prime reason why many buy with local companies, you get a superior product and you are not left dangling in the wind when something goes wrong, but of course you pay for it.
That said, you might try cnczone if you have not already, reams of info on chinese machines there.
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby garylmast » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:00 am

If you brought the machine and know the manufacture, sent them an email. You shouldn't have any problem with service. Remember they are 13-hours ahead of me in Salt Lake, so they are 14-hours ahead of you. Another source for metric bearings, if that's the problem, that I've had good luck with is: http://www.vxb.com/ .

I sent the manufacture where I bought my machine an order for the bearings last Thursday, used Western Union to transfer the funds, and just got notification from DHL that the package will be delivered tomorrow, so don't give up hope that just because it's a foreign product, you can't get service.
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby mike1966 » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:21 am

It could be the pinion gear is loose, or the coupler if it isn't r and p
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby signmarketingman » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:54 am

Oh the trials of buying a machine that uses old technology.

You can build a machine almost from the hardware store that will have a much better response and bang for the buck. There are kit machines that give great response as well. I home built mine for just under 3 grand and it will do work that I am very happy with.

Maybe to get a better machine you could consider building one such as a Joe's cnc kit style or get a used shopbot or mechmate.
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby sawmiller » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:32 pm

Jefoni wrote:I want so bad to be able to do cnc machining, but maybe it is just too complex for me. SO I started with a 6040 Chinese machine just to see if this hobby was for me. I LOVE IT, BUT, I am having issues. Since day one, on SOME things I want to cut, the machine stalls. It just starts to make a grinding / binding noise, then starts to move properly again however, it is way off course. I have tinkered with motor tuning, feeds and speeds of my VECTRIC software and I can't fix it. Sometimes I will cut an entire project with NO issues, and other times I cant get thru one piece. Not sure how many know of the VECTRIC free project called the "BLING BOX". I cut the sides and bottom out PERFECTLY. Now I am trying to cut the top. After 3 failed attempts, I set my speed in my VECTRIC software tool path to 2200 mm per minute and plunge to 700 per minute. I ran the entire tool path in thin air with NO WOOD, and it ran the whole thing perfect. I put a piece of pine on the machine, and it stalled on line 336. NEVER stalls on the same point. There seems to be NO consistency to when it will do it.

ANY IDEAS? I would pay someone to fly to Arizona and fix this problem. I want to buy a new 48x96 machine, but if I cant get the little one to work why spend 20K on a big one right??

Anyway, below are my specs, and I have also attached my .xml file. This is ALL the info I know, so if you start asking me about screws, pitches, frequencies etc, I will be lost. One thing I will tell you is the MFG told me to set the machine in mach 3 up like this:

Steps: 640
Velocity: 2500 XY 800 Z
Accel: 200 XY 150 Z

When I set Steps to 640 everything is doubled. I run the step calculator in Mach 3 and it says to set steps to 320 so I did.

SPECS:
Dell Computer running windows XP
ETHERNET SMOOTH STEPPER
Chinese 6040z + S65J
VFD SPindle usually run at 300khz or 18000 rpm

.XML attached

Any help and patience would be appreciated, and if the help is I am over my head, so be it. I just gotta know cause it has been driving me nuts for 6 months now.


my suggestion is to lower your acceleration in mach3 .. cut it in half
if you dont know how, got to mach's website and download the manual. after you change the settings, there is a save in the menu,otherwise it will be the original next time you start up
then program a file to cut at a slower speed , say 1300mm
once its running slow, watch it and see whats binding, one side or the other. then look there.
woodmizer sawmill and joe's hybrid cnc, a good combination
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby Jefoni » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:52 pm

Thanks everyone for the guidance.

Leo, I am using a four fluted endmill with a cut depth of .125 inches in zebra wood and poplar for this particular project, the bling box. It cut the bottom and sides perfectly, but won't cut the top properly.

I posted on a couple forums, and most of the responses are similar relating to acceleration and velocity settings in Mach. What I don't know and maybe you can enlighten me, which speed is it that the machine runs in? Said a different way, let's say my mach software is set to 3 inches per minute, however in Aspire I set my feed rate to 1.5 inches per minute; does the G code created by Aspire override the faster speed set in mach? Or should I set my motor speeds in Mach3 to mach the feed rates in Aspire on each project?

I am just getting the sense from all the replies that the problem is surely related to the relationship between Aspire feed rates and Mach3's acceleration and velocity settings.

I am going to clean, lubricate, and check bearings as suggested as well. Then I will cut my Mach settings in half, line them up with the feed rate in Aspire and see how she goes.

Again I thank everyone for the quick and detailed responses.

Regards,

Jeff
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby garylmast » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:53 pm

The problem I was having was losing Z height. I tried lowering the acceleration, changing the Steps to half, trying the step pulses, and reading everything posted and watching every video posted. I even put a surge protector in my electrical panel box. I did a simple G-code that raises and lowers the Z heights a dozen or so times and watched and listened and still had the problems. I was in constant contact with the manufacture that tested my G-code. It was only after I found the damaged bearing, that I feel confidence I found the problem. I attached the G-code profile that raised and lowers the spindle 25.4 mm each way if you want to try that. Gary

P.S. it didn't like the tap file, but what I did it was open at tap file in notepad, deleted all the content and wrote G0Z25.4, next line G1Z25.4, then copied and pasted it 12 times, then saved it.
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby sawmiller » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:29 pm

Jefoni wrote:Thanks everyone for the guidance.

Leo, I am using a four fluted endmill with a cut depth of .125 inches in zebra wood and poplar for this particular project, the bling box. It cut the bottom and sides perfectly, but won't cut the top properly.

I posted on a couple forums, and most of the responses are similar relating to acceleration and velocity settings in Mach. What I don't know and maybe you can enlighten me, which speed is it that the machine runs in? Said a different way, let's say my mach software is set to 3 inches per minute, however in Aspire I set my feed rate to 1.5 inches per minute; does the G code created by Aspire override the faster speed set in mach? Or should I set my motor speeds in Mach3 to mach the feed rates in Aspire on each project?

I am just getting the sense from all the replies that the problem is surely related to the relationship between Aspire feed rates and Mach3's acceleration and velocity settings.

I am going to clean, lubricate, and check bearings as suggested as well. Then I will cut my Mach settings in half, line them up with the feed rate in Aspire and see how she goes.

Again I thank everyone for the quick and detailed responses.

Regards,

Jeff


aspires feed rate will rule while cutting, machs while moving to a new spot. however machs acceleration is applicabile at all times
thats why you need to reduce the accel till you find out whats wrong. from the sounds of it, it is your machine binding slightly somewheres
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby Leo » Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:13 pm

Jefoni wrote:Thanks everyone for the guidance.

Leo, I am using a four fluted endmill with a cut depth of .125 inches in zebra wood and poplar for this particular project, the bling box. It cut the bottom and sides perfectly, but won't cut the top properly.

I posted on a couple forums, and most of the responses are similar relating to acceleration and velocity settings in Mach. What I don't know and maybe you can enlighten me, which speed is it that the machine runs in? Said a different way, let's say my mach software is set to 3 inches per minute, however in Aspire I set my feed rate to 1.5 inches per minute; does the G code created by Aspire override the faster speed set in mach? Or should I set my motor speeds in Mach3 to mach the feed rates in Aspire on each project?

I am just getting the sense from all the replies that the problem is surely related to the relationship between Aspire feed rates and Mach3's acceleration and velocity settings.

I am going to clean, lubricate, and check bearings as suggested as well. Then I will cut my Mach settings in half, line them up with the feed rate in Aspire and see how she goes.

Again I thank everyone for the quick and detailed responses.

Regards,

Jeff


Jeff,

A 4 flute end mill is not great in wood. There is not really enough "gullet" or clearance in the flutes for the chips to evacuate. It is possible that the end mill gets clogged and requires more force to get it moving through the cut, and therefore over powers the axis drives. NOT probable - but possible.

You didn't tell me the diameter of the end mill, but I would guess that .125 is not bad for a depth of cut.

I know lots of people play around with acel and decel.
I am sure there is something to that.
You would see a problem in the direction changes, or start and stops.
It would be where inertia of the machine would overcome the power of the axis drives.

From what you described - that is not your problem.

I have never changed acel or decel in my Mach3, controller on my machine.

I find cleaning and lubrication fixes my problem.

I don't use metric feeds so I cannot relate to that.

Zebra wood I believe is much denser than Poplar. I might run at a little slower feedrate on that.

You really should try a 2 flute cutter - again I don't know the size you used.

For feedrate - I set that in Aspire. Of course knowing what to set it to is half the battle.
I NEVER change anything in Mach3.
The only thing I do in Mach3 is the feedrate override.
I generally turn it down slow to start, but as soon as I see the program and set up are good, I turn it up.

Feedrate is VERY VERY machine dependent.

Some machines can EASILY handle 300-500 IPM. My machine does not even move that fast.

I can cut reliably at 40 - 75 IPM and somewhat reliably at 90 - 110 IPM depending on the cut.

I will almost certainly start getting into trouble at 90 or over. At this speed acel and decel "might" help, but for that matter, I would just run slower.

Another thing you should look for is that nothing is binding.
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby garylmast » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:17 am

I'm not sure if you got your problem fixed, but I'll give you my update. My problem was the lost of "Z" height during operation. I installed the new slide bearing. I then checked to see how much slop I had in the screw, by lifting the spindle up with a hydraulic floor jack. It turned out I had about 2 mm, so I tightened the bottom nut several turns, so there was no play. Those things help a little, but didn't cure the problem. I changed the "steps per" figure which was 355 (set by calibration) to 160 (My setup is working in millimeters). I just completed the first job which took a duration of 1-hour 50-minutes and it was dead on. I'm not sure I quite like the way I ended up doing it, but at least it's working. Gary
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Re: I would pay to have fixed

Postby ChrisInEstes » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:05 pm

Jeff,

Here's a link to a map of some Vectric software owners in AZ. Click on the "pins" and their names comes up. Perhaps one of those people is close enough and knows enough to help you out if you can't get it working correctly. Don't give up! You'll get it figured out!

http://goo.gl/maps/2Fzci

Just a thought...
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NEW UPDATE

Postby garylmast » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:25 pm

I finally found a technician that inspected my machine and diagnosed the problem as being the encoder in the stepper motor. He explained the encoder as being a laser disc inside the motor. Anyway, a new motor is ordered and hopefully I'll have it running in a couple of days. Gary
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