In Search of the perfect tool for V carving
- RoutnAbout
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In Search of the perfect tool for V carving
I've decided to add a poll to this thread
In Search of the perfect tool for V carving
I've been to allot of the Commercial Lumber Yards ( Lowes, Menards, Home Depot ), I've also done extensive search on the web, and the different tooling sites are to numerous to post. But I've determined to find the best V carving tool. And If I can't find it, I'll have one made. Which leads me to the question what actually is it that everybody is looking for in a V carving tool.
So I would like to welcome any and all thoughts and questions about tooling.
Are the bits you using leaving to many machining marks? Chatter Marks?
On Wednesday met with a toolgrinder that is very interested in helping me find that perfect tool. So with everyones input maybe we can finally find that perfect tool. I also hoping that I can get enough feed back to get this tool made and even be able to test it and bring it to the VCarving Conference in April, The results and pictures will also be posted here on this thread.
I'm really looking forward to seeing where this thread goes.
In Search of the perfect tool for V carving
I've been to allot of the Commercial Lumber Yards ( Lowes, Menards, Home Depot ), I've also done extensive search on the web, and the different tooling sites are to numerous to post. But I've determined to find the best V carving tool. And If I can't find it, I'll have one made. Which leads me to the question what actually is it that everybody is looking for in a V carving tool.
So I would like to welcome any and all thoughts and questions about tooling.
Are the bits you using leaving to many machining marks? Chatter Marks?
On Wednesday met with a toolgrinder that is very interested in helping me find that perfect tool. So with everyones input maybe we can finally find that perfect tool. I also hoping that I can get enough feed back to get this tool made and even be able to test it and bring it to the VCarving Conference in April, The results and pictures will also be posted here on this thread.
I'm really looking forward to seeing where this thread goes.
Last edited by RoutnAbout on Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
- TReischl
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He who goes in search of prefection, comes back less than fulfilled.
Evidently you are less than happy with the results you are getting?
I bought a CMT 45 included angle a while back, good results with it. Though, like any V-bit, it does not cut to a truly sharp point. When you think about the weakness that would occur at that tiny point, and also how fast it would wear (realize that at the tip of a pointed tool, you have virtually no cutting action, it is why a drill bit tries to skate around on metals, it does not want to cut in the center) you understand why it is not sharpened to a perfectly pointed tip.
Many things go into good results, not just the tool. Chatter marks and such are indications of lots of other things. Possible the machine is not rigid enough for the feedrate used? The material is not tightly secured in all 3 axis? On the cheapy machine I bought and sent back, I could watch the bed flex at least 1/32 when the tool plunged.
I am not sure someone can come up with the perfect tool. When you think about all the research that has gone into cutting tools in the last hundred years, the better qualities of carbide we now get, the ability to use computers to analyze a tool's performance. . . my guess is that manufacturers are about as close as they will ever get. They might get a tiny tweak here and there, but we would probably not be able to see a real difference on our machines.
My advice is buy good quality bits, not the cheapo "columbian" brand stuff from Harbor Freight. Someone gave me a 90 degree bit from HF. . . I tried it and discovered that the included angle was about 85 degrees! YIKES!
Good Luck on your quest though, and say hello to Don Quixote for me!
Evidently you are less than happy with the results you are getting?
I bought a CMT 45 included angle a while back, good results with it. Though, like any V-bit, it does not cut to a truly sharp point. When you think about the weakness that would occur at that tiny point, and also how fast it would wear (realize that at the tip of a pointed tool, you have virtually no cutting action, it is why a drill bit tries to skate around on metals, it does not want to cut in the center) you understand why it is not sharpened to a perfectly pointed tip.
Many things go into good results, not just the tool. Chatter marks and such are indications of lots of other things. Possible the machine is not rigid enough for the feedrate used? The material is not tightly secured in all 3 axis? On the cheapy machine I bought and sent back, I could watch the bed flex at least 1/32 when the tool plunged.
I am not sure someone can come up with the perfect tool. When you think about all the research that has gone into cutting tools in the last hundred years, the better qualities of carbide we now get, the ability to use computers to analyze a tool's performance. . . my guess is that manufacturers are about as close as they will ever get. They might get a tiny tweak here and there, but we would probably not be able to see a real difference on our machines.
My advice is buy good quality bits, not the cheapo "columbian" brand stuff from Harbor Freight. Someone gave me a 90 degree bit from HF. . . I tried it and discovered that the included angle was about 85 degrees! YIKES!
Good Luck on your quest though, and say hello to Don Quixote for me!
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns
- Rcnewcomb
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I have been very pleased with the V bits from CMT. I seem to get better cuts and bit life on these than the Onsrud V-bits, but for spiral downcut bits I still prefer Onsrud.
When I can afford them I use the Gerber V-bits -- incredible bit life and a variety of larger angles that are marvelous for sign work and certain cabinet carvings.
When I can afford them I use the Gerber V-bits -- incredible bit life and a variety of larger angles that are marvelous for sign work and certain cabinet carvings.
- RoutnAbout
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TReischl,
I haven't really been unhappy with any of the tooling I've purchased, but I am getting tired about purchasing tooling and having to take it to work and put it in our cnc grinder and making it right. I grind tools 10 hours a day, although 95% of the tools are for metal working, Basically the same principal applys to woodworking with some modifications to the geometry. I've noticed that most buy stuff off the shelf, which works and stays within most everyones budget. So we are working with what they think we want and need. I feel if we get good info what what one needs and don't need that that tool can be made.
For example. all V carving bits I've seen in catalogs ,online and have resharpened at work, all have a flat face or what we call a shear angle to the face. its angled back to allow the chips to extract from the toolpath. This flat face is a scraping the wood out, I don't think its actually cutting the wood. Why not attempt to make a spiraled tool that acts more like its cutting the materail instead of scraping. This sprial can be as slow or as fast spiral. One just needs to do some tests on something like that. I just thought that others might be interested
You also mentioned drills bits walking or not staying on center when being used. Again thats because of being made wrong or is the wrong tool for what your attempting to do. I do know I can put a point on a drill bit that will never walk, along with making it drill to exactly the size one needs with in a couple thousands( .002" )
I haven't really been unhappy with any of the tooling I've purchased, but I am getting tired about purchasing tooling and having to take it to work and put it in our cnc grinder and making it right. I grind tools 10 hours a day, although 95% of the tools are for metal working, Basically the same principal applys to woodworking with some modifications to the geometry. I've noticed that most buy stuff off the shelf, which works and stays within most everyones budget. So we are working with what they think we want and need. I feel if we get good info what what one needs and don't need that that tool can be made.
For example. all V carving bits I've seen in catalogs ,online and have resharpened at work, all have a flat face or what we call a shear angle to the face. its angled back to allow the chips to extract from the toolpath. This flat face is a scraping the wood out, I don't think its actually cutting the wood. Why not attempt to make a spiraled tool that acts more like its cutting the materail instead of scraping. This sprial can be as slow or as fast spiral. One just needs to do some tests on something like that. I just thought that others might be interested
You also mentioned drills bits walking or not staying on center when being used. Again thats because of being made wrong or is the wrong tool for what your attempting to do. I do know I can put a point on a drill bit that will never walk, along with making it drill to exactly the size one needs with in a couple thousands( .002" )
- TReischl
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Rout,
So why are you on a quest for the perfect router bits? Since you grind tools 10 hours a day, and you say you think you know what they need to be, you should just grind them up the way you want them, and heck, if they turn out great, all of us will buy them!
So why are you on a quest for the perfect router bits? Since you grind tools 10 hours a day, and you say you think you know what they need to be, you should just grind them up the way you want them, and heck, if they turn out great, all of us will buy them!
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns
- harryball
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I'm no expert... but I have wondered why Vbits are not available with some kind of cutting angle or helix to them. I don't do a tremendous amount of vcarving but I do include accents and decoration that uses Vbits or engraving bits. My experience is that these bits don't hold up as long as the spiral cutters I use.
My perfect bit? That would be a bit that changed its profile while cutting... when I needed a vbit it would morph to a vbit... then to a 1/8" spiral cutter... then 1/4" and so on. It'd also be nice if it did this in such a way that Zzero remained constant. Oh, self sharpening of course. Now THAT would be a perfect cutter.
Robert
My perfect bit? That would be a bit that changed its profile while cutting... when I needed a vbit it would morph to a vbit... then to a 1/8" spiral cutter... then 1/4" and so on. It'd also be nice if it did this in such a way that Zzero remained constant. Oh, self sharpening of course. Now THAT would be a perfect cutter.
Robert
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- RoutnAbout
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TReisch,
Where I work doesn't seem to want my money, so I've decided to go else where with my idea. I don't know if I've got the perfect that I'm wanting to design, but I feel its a better tool. So more minds are better than one, thats why I brought this idea to this forum, I'm willing to fund as much of it as I can and I may need some other users to help with testing this tool. But If I going to attempt find a better bit, I'd like to have everyones input so everyone can benefit, not just a select few.
I've also talked to this guy and he can polish the flutes like I've mentioned before which will keep the material your cutting from sticking to the inside of the flutes of your tool. So there are a lot of good things that can go into this idea.
Where I work doesn't seem to want my money, so I've decided to go else where with my idea. I don't know if I've got the perfect that I'm wanting to design, but I feel its a better tool. So more minds are better than one, thats why I brought this idea to this forum, I'm willing to fund as much of it as I can and I may need some other users to help with testing this tool. But If I going to attempt find a better bit, I'd like to have everyones input so everyone can benefit, not just a select few.
Robert I was ready to say that could be acheived by an automatic tool changer, but you had to add in it needed to sharpen its self.. which I suppose is possible depending on how much cash you have to add the grinder to your tool changerharryball wrote:My perfect bit? That would be a bit that changed its profile while cutting... when I needed a vbit it would morph to a vbit... then to a 1/8" spiral cutter... then 1/4" and so on. It'd also be nice if it did this in such a way that Zzero remained constant. Oh, self sharpening of course. Now THAT would be a perfect cutter.
Robert
I've also talked to this guy and he can polish the flutes like I've mentioned before which will keep the material your cutting from sticking to the inside of the flutes of your tool. So there are a lot of good things that can go into this idea.
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- Vectric Craftsman
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Helix V bit
Don-- Count me in to try out your bit--Might it not have to be a down spiral to prevent chipping along the top edge of the material? Just a slight helix to create a knife cut rather than a scraping cut? Jack
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In Search of the perfect tool for V carving
Hi Don,
Upon reading your post I thought I had better chip in with my 3 bits worth.
After purchasing VCarve Wizard back in Nov 2005, I couldn't lay my hands on any true pointed V bits, so I went to a local tool maker and asked him if he could knock me something up that I could give the program a test with.
He made me three, a 60º, 90º and a 120º
They are made from 8mm dia. tungsten and simply have three flats machined on each.
I personally didn't think they would perform too well but upon trying them I was astounded with the finish I got.
Although I am not using them constantly they have all had many hours worth of use. Cutting Acrylic, MDF, Plywood etc.
The 90º one I have wiped over once with a diamond stone just to bring the finish back to cut some Clear Acrylic with, as you can see in my photo.
I suppose you could easily make one of these and give it a try?
Cheers,
Warren.
Hi Don,
Upon reading your post I thought I had better chip in with my 3 bits worth.
After purchasing VCarve Wizard back in Nov 2005, I couldn't lay my hands on any true pointed V bits, so I went to a local tool maker and asked him if he could knock me something up that I could give the program a test with.
He made me three, a 60º, 90º and a 120º
They are made from 8mm dia. tungsten and simply have three flats machined on each.
I personally didn't think they would perform too well but upon trying them I was astounded with the finish I got.
Although I am not using them constantly they have all had many hours worth of use. Cutting Acrylic, MDF, Plywood etc.
The 90º one I have wiped over once with a diamond stone just to bring the finish back to cut some Clear Acrylic with, as you can see in my photo.
I suppose you could easily make one of these and give it a try?
Cheers,
Warren.
- RoutnAbout
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Jack, am I reading your post right that you do not think it should be a down spiral? but should be an up spiral? If this is correct, I'll have to agree with you. As far as how much helix?? I think it needs to have some and this may depend on the feeds everyone is using, I think the guys with a higher feed will need a higher more aggressive helix\spiral. I think I'm going to opt to have a single flute, because this can be made so the cutting edge stays on center,
Warren are you using those more as an engraving tool? are you having any burning in wood or heat or melting in plastics and acrylics? I wouldn't think that you could Vcarve vary fast maybe .500 inches a second. I may have to attempt to duplicate that to see whats going on there.
Warren are you using those more as an engraving tool? are you having any burning in wood or heat or melting in plastics and acrylics? I wouldn't think that you could Vcarve vary fast maybe .500 inches a second. I may have to attempt to duplicate that to see whats going on there.
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Don,
As I said earlier, "I personally didn't think they would perform too well but upon trying them I was astounded with the finish I got."
When I picked them up from the toolmaker and looked at the three flat surfaces on each tool I did not think I would get any decent results. In fact I didn't think they would even cut.
I've used them for the last 15 months and every sample picture I have posted + many others either VCarved or Photo VCarved I have used these cutters. The 90º tool in picture has probably done the most cutting. I would estimate around 30 hours without re-sharpening. Also being such a simple design I don't expect they will cost to much to re-sharpen. The price new I paid for these as a 1 off was about £8.00 each I think.
I don't get any burning in wood and as well as machining into MDF and Plywood, I have also cut some Oak and Pine, the finish has been great.
Cutting Acrylic is also fine but sometimes I have had to make a second pass to clean up the finish. I think that is mainly because I am a perfectionist and anything less than that I would sooner spend more time on to make it just.
Anyway try it and give it a go, you may be surprised!!!
Oh and as far as cutting speeds you estimated 0.5 inches per second.
That equates to 762mm per minute.
Well actually I am cutting at 4 meters a minute at 24000 rpm.
Got to go now, the staff have all gone down the Pub and left me.
Back later,
Warren.
As I said earlier, "I personally didn't think they would perform too well but upon trying them I was astounded with the finish I got."
When I picked them up from the toolmaker and looked at the three flat surfaces on each tool I did not think I would get any decent results. In fact I didn't think they would even cut.
I've used them for the last 15 months and every sample picture I have posted + many others either VCarved or Photo VCarved I have used these cutters. The 90º tool in picture has probably done the most cutting. I would estimate around 30 hours without re-sharpening. Also being such a simple design I don't expect they will cost to much to re-sharpen. The price new I paid for these as a 1 off was about £8.00 each I think.
I don't get any burning in wood and as well as machining into MDF and Plywood, I have also cut some Oak and Pine, the finish has been great.
Cutting Acrylic is also fine but sometimes I have had to make a second pass to clean up the finish. I think that is mainly because I am a perfectionist and anything less than that I would sooner spend more time on to make it just.
Anyway try it and give it a go, you may be surprised!!!
Oh and as far as cutting speeds you estimated 0.5 inches per second.
That equates to 762mm per minute.
Well actually I am cutting at 4 meters a minute at 24000 rpm.
Got to go now, the staff have all gone down the Pub and left me.
Back later,
Warren.
Warren,
Being a machinist for 19 years now and having sharpened many cutters I looked at your cutter in the posts above and said " no way." Today I had a few minutes at work and grabbed a old endmill shank and put it in a spindex, tilted it at 30 degrees and ground it on 3 sides. Even after it was done, I couldn't see in my mind how it could possibly work. I tried it out tonight on a piece of MDF and got possibly the best finish I've ever gotten with my router! No burrs, chips, etc. The only thing is - to get the right angle, you have to do a little math. I tilted this cutter at 30 degrees and the included angle ended up at 81.786 degrees. Theres a compound angle thing going on. I got on the computer at work and figured out that to get a 60 degree included you need to tilt the spindex at 19.5 degrees . When I get some free time, I'll figure out the tilting needed for various angles and post it here. Have you used these cutters in Oak, Cherry, etc? Thanks for the hot tip!
Jason
Being a machinist for 19 years now and having sharpened many cutters I looked at your cutter in the posts above and said " no way." Today I had a few minutes at work and grabbed a old endmill shank and put it in a spindex, tilted it at 30 degrees and ground it on 3 sides. Even after it was done, I couldn't see in my mind how it could possibly work. I tried it out tonight on a piece of MDF and got possibly the best finish I've ever gotten with my router! No burrs, chips, etc. The only thing is - to get the right angle, you have to do a little math. I tilted this cutter at 30 degrees and the included angle ended up at 81.786 degrees. Theres a compound angle thing going on. I got on the computer at work and figured out that to get a 60 degree included you need to tilt the spindex at 19.5 degrees . When I get some free time, I'll figure out the tilting needed for various angles and post it here. Have you used these cutters in Oak, Cherry, etc? Thanks for the hot tip!
Jason
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- RoutnAbout
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