From my clip art library

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Re: From my clip art library

Postby cac67 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:40 pm

esteeme1 wrote:Hi Chris,

Thanks for the thought. Of course I would consider any referrals but my back log gets pretty full as far as modeling goes. I can't make any promises that I could schedule extra work.

This may be a good time to bring up pricing. I know this has been discussed for machine time but I haven't seen to much considering modeling. (Vectric please don't think I'm trying to horde in on your great work but this is a modeling software) My free lance charge may not reflect yours. I get a lot of silence on the line when I quote my pricing. Considering the time involved in the modeling I just try to stay away from it. I don't think it's beneficial/cost effective to charge reduced rates for free lance. I don't mind incorporating it into my work and feel the modeling offsets the price of the piece. Most of the time I have repeat business as well. I'm not sure what your charging but personally feel that charging $25 an hour is not out of the question and I normally place a cap around $200 to $300 dependent on the details. I always reserve the right to reuse my models unless it's copyrighted but then the price would be more.

I find most everyone comes in thinking there going to get a model for $50 and never consider the time involved.


I get the same thing. People see $25 on my site for a model and think that's what I do all models for. I don't charge by the hour, I have a minimum price I set for custom modeling and the busier I get the higher it gets. Currently my base is $175 and goes up from there based on the complexity. I have no upper limit but I don't go crazy with it, I think the most I've ever bid on a project was $650 and that was a highly detailed scene with multiple marines in full gear. Even that I probably would bid less on at other times of the year but it came in during April which is one of my busiest times. One difference we have though is for custom modeling I don't reuse anything, if a customer is willing to pay my price for it as far as I'm concerned they get exclusive use. If someone else wants the same thing they'll have to pay me at least as much and I'll make it all again. That's never happened yet but I keep the possibility in mind.

I won't accept any military emblem for custom, if it's a real military emblem it's $25 and it's available to anyone who wants to buy it. I've had one customer who was incensed that I wouldn't negotiate that $25 price and didn't buy the model after I made it. Most of the comments I get on my pricing is that I could charge more. Most of my customers are in business and are passing the modeling cost on the their customers, but I started the site because when I needed a model for my nephews plaque they weren't available. I don't want to get too expensive for the little guy doing a one off as a gift.

This can lead to some mind bogglement. I charged $25 for this:
Image

I spent a month on this. I had a lot of interruptions and made 3 other models during that time but if I had focused on it exclusively it still would have taken most of a week. If this was custom modeling I probably would have bid $500 for it, but it's an official Canadian military emblem so it was $25. There was really only one difficult item in it, but there's just a lot of stuff in it.

So I can understand why people may be shocked when they ask for a custom quote.
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Re: From my clip art library

Postby antennasDIY » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:50 pm

I can't see the picture, but I think I know what it is!! I knew I should have paid you more!!
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Re: From my clip art library

Postby cac67 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:03 pm

antennasDIY wrote:I can't see the picture, but I think I know what it is!! I knew I should have paid you more!!


Lol you guessed it! But my point is you couldn't pay more for it, it's a military emblem and I don't negotiate that price.
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Re: From my clip art library

Postby Xxray » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:09 pm

Pricing can be dicey on custom work for just about anything, I have sold things where people have said OMG, how can you sell this soooo cheap ? Other times they go into sticker shock and seem to want to pay $19.95 for something I have $25 in material alone and 3 hours of time in.
I sold a nice pair of 1911 pistol grips for $30 and some say thats crazy cheap, I don't think so. Something that small even exotic wood cost is only a couple $$, machine/finishing time about 45 minutes. Thats a pretty good profit margin if you ask me. I might well be able to get more but I haven't found a huge, exploding market for such a specific item, and my bottom line is I know what I have into them, and I know what I need to make it worth my while without raping someone.
Some people will blather on about undercutting other guys, but again I don't see that happening with the custom stuff I do, and if I was undercutting guys I probably would not feel too bad about it, maybe they are charging too much ?

You guys that do models work with some of the same variables, its probably true that many folks don't appreciate the amount of time that goes into making them, and time is $$. I know some people think some of my projects are zapped out in minutes whereas they may take 5-6 hours or more, same with you guys, they think you got some snazzy program that zaps out models with a few clicks on the mouse. Too, many folks would see a computer created model as something almost intangible, not a physical item to hold in hand, so may be expecting it dirt cheap.

So it falls into the same factors, you guys know what you got into it and have a good grasp of what it would be worth while for you to do, and have to set some sort of bottom line else you'd be working for peanuts or less. Though I often sell dirt cheap/at cost or flat out give things away to friends, family and charity, I always promised myself I would not do CNC for minimum wage, by and large I have lived up to that with most of the work I do, and sometimes make more on CNC per hour than I do on my union jobs.

I bought a model from Chris [SAC emblem] and have seen and admired Jims work for quite a while, both very talented craftsmen and creators and stand up guys - At the end of the day, you guys know you have contributed alot, had some fun, learned things, helped some people and made a few $$, and thats what its all about.
Doug
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Re: From my clip art library

Postby esteeme1 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:29 pm

I donate most of my Artwork as it's military related. The funny part is I try to keep it on the cheap and free is pretty damned good. Mind that it is in loo of a project and I am not providing the models to the client. The real issue comes when I am volunteering my work and get nothing but changes requests on trivial points, like the canopy looks to small or the chain has to many links or move it closer or farther away. It really makes me want to apply a change order fee especially when it's exactly what was provided or many times better than the original.

As far as military insignias go I never charge my clients for them. When it comes to command crests and unit patches I am beginning to change my philosophy. Mainly due to the fact that I don't think it's appreciated. I think many believe it's free because it's easy or there's that magic button. (as Xray stated).

When I was working form home I had the same idea as Xray. I didn't care that I was undercutting the next guy. Now that I'm in my shop and paying an overhead on rent and utilities I still don't, but I still have to pay rent. It's up to me to make my end product better then the next guy. So my thought is to force the question (and I have said this more than once) Where did you get the done? I like to think my work speaks for itself, and do. Nothing prides me more as when a new client walks in the door and says I saw the shadow box you did for…….and just had to get you to do mine. I think that is how I'm surviving. Back to the point though it's still important to standardize pricing pricing regardless of where you do your work from, your rental shop or your home garage. We only cheat ourselves by not maintaining a relative standard.

Don't think I'm wining about pricing my bills get paid. I'm just say that my prices tend to reflect what I have researched on line. But I do try to provide extra services as enticement.
Jim Darlas
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Re: From my clip art library

Postby cac67 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:47 pm

Somehow we ended up in a pricing discussion, something I usually avoid since I'm not really in the same business. I consider my competition to be vectorart3d and 3dmodelclub, and neither is focused like I am so they have relatively few military emblems available. But compare my pricing to theirs and you'll see that I'm competitive with them.

4 years ago I had a partner. He supplied the materials and handled all finishing and sales, I did the modeling and cutting. When we first got together I was charging $35/hr but I wasn't doing much modeling myself yet. We had several discussions about pricing and he kept insisting that charging by the hour was a slow road to bankruptcy. He wanted me to charge what the item was worth to me, not try to anticipate the market and price it to sell. I was just completely clueless about what value to place on anything so finally one day he told me to take whatever figure I came up with and at least triple it. I still resisted so he made a deal with me. He would provide a slab of deadhead cypress for me to carve the last supper, I would make it as big and deep as I could (high relief being more valuable than low relief) he would finish, frame, and sell it and if he didn't get at least 3 times more for it than my hourly rate he'd leave me alone about pricing. It was a 44 hour cut, which not being a masochist I did with tape splitting and spread out over 5 days. I used a brand new Beckwith bit for the cut so at my hourly rate I had about $1500 in it and that's what I would have charged for it. It took him 11 months to get it sold but he got $8,000 for it. By then I was out of business and had sold all my equipment.

A year ago or so I did a model for a world famous sculptor who wanted to see if he could integrate 3d printing with clay sculpture. It wasn't anything real interesting, just a shape he was going to build on, but I didn't want to waste the opportunity so when he asked me what I would charge for it I asked him to make me an offer. I figured here's a guy whose work is in museums and cathedrals all over the world, he's literally working on a different level and I wanted to get an idea what that level was. His offer was around 15 times more than I would have asked.

So what's my point? Don't ask me about pricing, I'm clueless. :D
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Re: From my clip art library

Postby esteeme1 » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:39 am

I'm with you Chris, I'm not suggesting you change anything. In the end we all pay our own bills and have to feel comfortable giving our clients a quality product. If we make sure they walk out the door feeling they have been treated fairly business will continue coming our way.
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http://www.esteemedplaques.com/
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