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Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:37 am
by zeeway
Yes, I did leave out a step....must seal v carved letters after carving with shellac or varnish.

Angie

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:06 pm
by Leo
Sealing and oil finishes are not compatible.

Oils soak into the wood and dry after some time - not hours - maybe days, or more. Oils are great finishes, but not generally considered sealers.

Nice thing about Shellac is that with DNA, it can be removed - washed off the surface.

I have never tried it, but maybe you can go through the Shellac as a sealer, paint what you want, then sand the top coat of shellac and wash with DNA to remove the Shellac. After that, you can use the oil. My favorite oil is bushes oil.

I would experiment on a piece of scrap

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:24 pm
by COWBOY1296
Let me steal this thread to ask a question along the same lines and maybe someone can point me in the right direction. This sign was cut in african mahogany and is meant for outdoors in a harsh environment. I first sealed the board in sanding sealer. I then cut my graphics and sealed the entire board in shellac. I then use stencil ink on the graphics. I let it dry for nearly 24 hours. Sanded off the excess which the stencil ink gunked up my sanding paper. I then brushed on sikkens log and siding and found that the stencil inch was starting to smear. but i was able to finish ok. Any thoughts on a different paint for the graphics or a different routine.

I got some good advice on the shopbot forum but figured i would pick your brains as well

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:37 pm
by martin54
COWBOY1296 wrote:Let me steal this thread to ask a question along the same lines and maybe someone can point me in the right direction. This sign was cut in african mahogany and is meant for outdoors in a harsh environment. I first sealed the board in sanding sealer. I then cut my graphics and sealed the entire board in shellac. I then use stencil ink on the graphics. I let it dry for nearly 24 hours. Sanded off the excess which the stencil ink gunked up my sanding paper. I then brushed on sikkens log and siding and found that the stencil inch was starting to smear. but i was able to finish ok. Any thoughts on a different paint for the graphics or a different routine.

I got some good advice on the shopbot forum but figured i would pick your brains as well



Sorry not prepared to let you steal my thread, but I am happy to share it with you :lol: :lol: :lol:

I hadn't a clue about the finish you mentioned so did a quick Google search, it would appear that it is solvent based which is probably why you were having problems with the stencil ink, you would probably have been better with a water based finish on this occasion although I can't advise on which one to use or even if a suitable one exists :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:34 am
by COWBOY1296
solvent based, that certainly makes sense. Sikkens is one of the best finishes for wood in a harsh enviroment. i have it on my log home and was told that their log and siding was one of the best for signs outdoors. The stuff aint cheap. I am in the sticks and paid 90 per gallon. The good thing is that a little of it goes a long ways. Thanks for letting me hi jack your thread

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:43 am
by Leo
I have three great books on wood finishes.

They may not be so helpful with the topic at hand, but to understand finishing takes one part knowledge and two parts practice.

These three guys are some of the best experts on finishing

1) The New Wood Finishing Book - Michael Dresdner
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing ... 404&sr=8-1

2) Understand Wood Finishing, How to select and Apply the right finish - Bob Flexner
https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wo ... ob+flexner

3) Great Wood Finishes - Jeff Jewitt
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing ... 555&sr=8-3

Between these three books you can get a REALLY GREAT understanding of the characteristics of the different finishes which will lead to WHY one is better than another.

They talk about brushing, spraying, wiping, frensh polishing.
They cover, oils, shellac's lacquer's, paints, urethanes, waxes, fillers, putties, stains, dyes, glazes, water based finishes, rubbed out finishes - whooeee - and everything else.

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:47 am
by martin54
Thanks for the book recommendations Leo :lol: :lol:

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:31 am
by CosmosK
Flexner book is awesome. It breaks things down by category of finish which is super helpful because so much of the info out there is not.

I'm confused on the Sikkens. I thought it was a penetrating oil, so oil based. Stencil ink: not sure what the base is, but not oil. I'm guessing it's alcohol based or lacquer (both evaporative finishes) considering how fast they dry. Oil sticking to that would be the issue. Maybe the ink itself doesn't take a topcoat well.. not sure.

My experience is most everything will stick to shellac (dewaxed) as the alcohol evaporates and you're just left with bug poo. Great stuff, but not much protection.

For the vcarve. I don't have a ton of experience, but some. My current technique is hit it with sealcoat (shellac). Then cut the details. For a finish, I like Tung oil. This method is good if you're drying in the house, because denatured alcohol (in shellac) is pretty harmless and so in Tung oil. If you need some more protection, gun stock finish is good. It's boiled tung oil. I'd use it all the time, but it's pricey.

I've had issues with applying shellan after cutting the details. You have seconds to spread it out evenly without getting extra in the pockets. Tung oil is great in that respect (wipe of excess after 30 min). I gave up trying to get shellac evenly coated in the details.

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:30 pm
by Leo
CosmosK wrote:, because denatured alcohol (in shellac) is pretty harmless .


Please be careful with this belief.

Denatured Alcohol is not necessarily harmless.

Most DNA on the market currently, is NOT what we believe it to be.

Read the MSDS sheets.

DNA used to be and soulld be 100% ETHANOL - which is the stuff that is basically harmless, even to some point medically appreciated

BUT

Most DNA not contains at least a high percentage to almost all METHANOL, which is basically NOT GOOD, and considered really BAD STUFF

Drinking the DNA that is 100% ethanol will make us sick because of the additives.

Drinking the DNA with METHANOL can kill you.

METHANOL is really bad for your skin

Ethanol can actually be good for your skin

Ethanol is made from distilling plant matter (corn)

Methanol is a chemically manufactured product.

Sooooo - be careful about DNA.

Ethanol is by far a better product than Methanol

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:12 pm
by Rcnewcomb
I've switched from lacquer to shellac for health and safety reasons. I use ethyl alcohol (Everclear) rather than denatured alcohol, again for health and safety reasons. I have to pay a premium to get it shipped -- it has to go as HAZMAT -- but I think it is worth it.

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:24 pm
by CosmosK
Fair points for sure, but I'll take fumes from DNA over Varnish or Lacquer any day. I use everclear if I know I'll be huffing the fumes (small shop in the winter).

Are you painting the vcarve letters? I'm not sure the tung oil will stick to paint going back to the oil sticks to oil, water based to water based. Shellac seems to be the go between. Cowboy1296, you might try shellac over the ink, then Sikkens.

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:42 pm
by COWBOY1296
thats a thought, but will sikkens stick to the shellac.

Re: sealing & finishing wood

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:05 pm
by CosmosK
worth a try. test piece might be in order. good luck