Problems with a large 3D relief carving

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Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby jssussex@gmail.com » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:20 pm

20190228_121537 crop-1.jpg
Crest
This is a 35X38 Carving that I ran a full size proof in MDF before I cut the 2 thick walnut. Can some one tell me why some of my carvings are great and others the tool path is making a mess of it. I'm using Aspire 9.514

for example My Book/Bible is great resolution but then the base under the book is extremely rough.
20190228_091454-1.jpg
Bible


the church has a saw tooth edge. When I try to smooth the Z axis in the modeling tool it messes up the sharp right angle edge of church outline.
20190228_091145-1.jpg
Church saw tooth edge
20190228_091139-1.jpg
church



Is there anyway to smooth the vertical edge of carvings (Z Axis ) without messing up the X/Y plane. That's what I believe I need to do.
My machine is set to constant velocity but if that were the problem I should see it in all of the edges of the book and other areas so I believe i just need to smooth the Z axis. I will be carving with the grain vertically so vertical lines that are rough simple slow the carving down and horizontal or diagonal objects like the cross member of the cross or the church roof line will have these carving errors. All the art work was smoothed (fit to curves) so it is not a node issue.

I've included the church crv file in case someone wants to look at it?
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3d Clip of Church
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Church source file
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Re: PROBLEMS WITH A LARGE 3D RELIEF CARVING

Postby dealguy11 » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:22 am

You have several things going on, some of which others will need to help with. The problem on the edge of the book, for example, seems to have something to do with your machine or control...that's not normal.

With respect to vertical edges in particular, Aspire doesn't carve them well. That's because Aspire is a surface modeler and the surface is defined as, essentially, pixels, each with a height above or below zero. When you get to a vertical surface you are always going to see jaggedness because of the pixelation. There are no pixels between the top and the bottom surfaces for the tool to use for a graceful plunge down the surface, so you see this jaggedness. The lower the model resolution, the worse the pixelation will be.

There are a couple of solutions. The best in my opinion is to use the "add draft" command, which gets rid of the vertical surfaces and replaces them with a steep slope. This give the bit something to ride down as it changes levels.

The second is to increase the overall model resolution in the Job Setup dialog, and re-model the parts (you can't add resolution to existing components). This will make the pixels smaller, but will still result in rough sides.

A third approach is to use 2-d paths to fix the edges. Here is an explanation of that approach: http://fromaspiretobeyond.blogspot.com/ ... t%20repair
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Re: PROBLEMS WITH A LARGE 3D RELIEF CARVING

Postby Rcnewcomb » Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:42 am

Steve is correct. There are some machine issues that show up on the cut piece but don't show up in the preview.
Prob01.JPG


The model itself has scalloping. This is evident when you zoom in. The model should be re-created at a higher modeling resolution.
prob02.JPG


Finally, the vectors (which I assume were used to create the model) show multiple nodes which will add additional noise to the model and/or toolpath.
Prob03.JPG


Recommendations:
1. fix the machine issues
2. clean up the vectors
3. re-create the 3D components using a higher modeling resolution setting. Sometimes it helps to create the individual components in separate files at very high resolution, and then import them into the current project.
4. Adding a draft angle to components will help them machine better vs vertical walls.
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby TReischl » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:37 am

Agree with all of the above suggestions.

About draft. . . you do not need to go crazy, 3 or 4 degrees helps a lot. It also does not destroy detail. For artistic work draft is a great thing.

One thing to add, instead of using the smooth tool, try using the overall smoothing command. Set it very low, as others have mentioned sharp edges between the xy and z are not so good.

CV is a nice thing and I venture that most of us use it. But there is more to it than that. Accel/decel settings play a huge part. If you have slow accel/decel settings what happens is the next move begins before the current move is finished.

In fact I used a model that was nothing more than a slot to set my accel/decels because that change from the xy plane to the Z will show everything. Turning a corner on the xy not so much unless they are really slow.
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby jssussex@gmail.com » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:03 am

Everyone thank you for your input,

The carving is an assembly of individual components - wheat, ribbons, torch, church, book , cross, shield and flame. So I will rebuild this carving after I've revisited and added the draft to the church etc. I also will contact my cnc tech support to find out how to adjust the CV settings.

I don't understand how to set the resolution of the component when you are creating the carved item. I thought it was based on the work area you designed it in. Inother words if the component is 4 x 8 inches set you work space to 5 x 9 not 24 x24.

Jim
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby Rcnewcomb » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:34 am

Jim,
This thread may help. In particular, read the PDF document in the thread: Aspire Model Resolution, Pixel size, and Rectangular Jobs
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby Xxray » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:37 am

Go to job setup, you will see resolution options in a dropdown box
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby mezalick » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:28 am

Jim,
Just my 2 cents here.
As you stated in you question, yes, if a component is 4" x 8" ,create it in a session of Aspire that measures 5" x 9" ( or less).
Here is an example of the same oval component, ( 0.125" x 0.1875" ) side by side in a 12" x 12" work space.

This is a slide from my training session on pixels..

The one on the left was created within a work space of 12" x 12"..
The one on the right was made within a work space of 0.185" x .25" and then imported ( Copy / Paste) into the 12" x 12" work space..
Each session was set to "Very High " Resolution.

Big difference ??

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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby jssussex@gmail.com » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:02 am

Rcnewcomb wrote:Jim,
This thread may help. In particular, read the PDF document in the thread: Aspire Model Resolution, Pixel size, and Rectangular Jobs



I followed the link above and it was enlightening. I don't understand how to force the resolution in the job setup above 7X (4,000,000 pixels) or is that the max and the resolution is related to the material size and the relationship of the model? e.g. 10 x 12 job size with a 9 x 11 object has a higher resolution than the same 9 x11 object designed on a 20 x24 job size?

and if that's true then ....if i make a model 9 x 11 model in a 10 x12 job size does it have the same resolution as doing the model as a 18 x 22 in a 20x 24 job size?

Also if the object is going to be 10 x 12 (e.g. church steeple picture in original post) on my final 34 x 40 composite carving should I model it larger say 20x 24 and save it as a 3dclip and then import that into the final carving and shrink it down to 10 x 12?

Finally when I add a base to get the object to project above the background (e.g. book above the shield - picture in original post) how do I introduce a 3 or 4 degree draft to cause the base to be sloped instead of straight up ?
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby martin54 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:16 pm

Jim if you are looking for the 20x & 50x modeling resolutions these are not usually viewble & you can't apply them to an existing job as far as I know. If you want to use either then hold down the shift key while clicking on Create a new file, if you check the modeling resolution box now you will see that Extrme 20x & maximum 50x resolutions have been added to the list. :lol: :lol: :lol:

You would need to be running a reasonable spec computer to use these unless you like watching paint dry :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby SteveNelson46 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:50 pm

Martin,

You can change the resolution on an existing job to extremely high or maximum by holding down the shift key when you click on the job dimension and setup button. As stated before, it won't have much effect on existing components.
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby TReischl » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:23 pm

mezalick wrote:Jim,
Just my 2 cents here.
As you stated in you question, yes, if a component is 4" x 8" ,create it in a session of Aspire that measures 5" x 9" ( or less).
Here is an example of the same oval component, ( 0.125" x 0.1875" ) side by side in a 12" x 12" work space.

This is a slide from my training session on pixels..

The one on the left was created within a work space of 12" x 12"..
The one on the right was made within a work space of 0.185" x .25" and then imported ( Copy / Paste) into the 12" x 12" work space..
Each session was set to "Very High " Resolution.

Big difference ??

Michael


Hello Michael,

I am getting the same results in the drawing window as you did. However, in the preview window there is really no improvement:

Capture.JPG


Maybe I am missing something here?

The one on the left was created 7X on a large job size, 48 X 48. The one on the right also at 7x on a job size just big enough to fit the circle. On the drawing screen it appears to have much higher resolution. However after applying a 3d finish cut there is no significant difference. I used a .25mm R tapered ball nose for the preview.

For some reason I feel like I am missing something?
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby martin54 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:06 pm

Thanks Steve, I have never used the 2 higher resolutions myself so wasn't sure how it worked with existing files, as for it having little effect on existing components yes I know that which was why I wasn't sure if it would work :lol: :lol: Bit pointless if it doesn't actually do anything lol, although I guess you may have a file full of vector artwork ready to start making components & in that case it might be useful :lol: :lol:

I am getting the same results in the drawing window as you did. However, in the preview window there is really no improvement: Have you tried altering the previw resolution to see if it makes a difference Ted??
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby TReischl » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:03 pm

martin54 wrote:I am getting the same results in the drawing window as you did. However, in the preview window there is really no improvement: Have you tried altering the previw resolution to see if it makes a difference Ted??


I knew I was missing something! But. . . . no joy:

Capture.JPG


Same test, same settings. That does not look any better to me.

Here is what I am thinking (you can tell by the smoke coming out of my ears): When a large job is created X number of "points" are assigned. When a piece of clip art is imported, even though it was modeled with points packed much closer together, those points are mapped to the existing points in the current job. Hence the degradation in resolution in the simulation preview window. The drawing window is displaying a bit map so there is no mapping required in that window. But when it comes to cutting there are only X number of "points" available.

In other words specifying a very high resolution for a large job makes a lot of sense since it will result in less loss of resolution.

I have not run this test on a 10 X 10 piece of material yet. It could be that size is small enough that there is no noticeable degradation. Yup, I just ran the same test with a 10 X 10 setup. The results look much better, but when I look closely at the two objects they are essentially the same in quality. No real noticeable difference.

Capture.JPG


Running this type of test on a large piece shows what happens very clearly. This all sort of makes sense. Let's say a model is created using 16 million pixels and it is very small. What it is added to a new job that has sixteen million pixels it would have to add those 16 million pixels to maintain original resolution. Add a few more models like that and pretty soon the current job would become so huge it would take forever to process. Like they say in government, a million here, a million there and pretty soon you are talking about real money!
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Re: Problems with a large 3D relief carving

Postby TReischl » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:52 pm

Thought I would create something that shows what these resolutions mean.

The chart shows points per sq inch, points per lineal inch and then most importantly the distance between these points.

Resolution.JPG


Quite often the modeling resolution is discussed in terms of pixels. Well, that is a bit inaccurate at best. There is a center - center distance between data points because the job has a size.
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