2-sided work

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2-sided work

Postby Olle » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:57 pm

I'm just trying to wrap my little head around the 2-sided cut feature in v9, and I believe I got the hang of it now. There's one thing I can't figure out though:

The way it lays out the model is that it flips the work piece around the x-axis when you toggle between front and back. Is there any way to make it flip around the y-axis instead? All my previous 2-sided models are made to be flipped around the y-axis, and I would like to keep it consistent so I don't make any mistakes when running new and old files. Also, when you flip around the x-axis you'll have to work upside down on one side, which is a bit awkward.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby highpockets » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:06 pm

I don't understand the working upside down comment, I use the 2 sided feature and flip about the X axis and have never worked upside down.

Anyway, to change the flip go to the Job Setup and change the Flip Direction Between Sides from left to right to up and down.

Image 008.png
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Olle » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:33 pm

highpockets wrote:I don't understand the working upside down comment, I use the 2 sided feature and flip about the X axis and have never worked upside down.

Anyway, to change the flip go to the Job Setup and change the Flip Direction Between Sides from left to right to up and down.

Image 008.png

I have found that feature in the initial job setup, but I can't see it anywhere in an existing model... Do I have to create a new model to do this? Also, is there a way to convert my single sided jobs to 2-sided, or do I have to make a new model and import from the old jobs?
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby highpockets » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:51 pm

If you have a true 3D model then when importing the model make sure to check "Create Both Sides" the model.

If you are using a 2.5D model (like in the Clipart folders) then place the model on one side and use the Copy to other Side option.

As for converting existing jobs, change the job to a two sided job, the easy part is selecting the vectors and components, right click and select Move to other side. The more involved issue is copying/moving the toolpaths to the other side. The only way I've found to copy/move the toolpaths is to use the Save Selected Toolpaths as a Template option on the Toolpath tab. Then switch to the other side and use the Load Toolpath Template to load the saved toolpaths to the other side. Next you'll have to select the vectors associated with toolpaths again and recalculate. Any Roughing and Finishing toolpaths will have to be recalculated.

Hope this makes since and helps.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Olle » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:35 am

Yep, it makes sense. I'm so used to the old way of working that I just have a hard time "adding another level" to it. This will be great once I get the hang of it though, as it will eliminate a lot of guesswork and botched prototypes.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby martin54 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:10 am

Olle wrote:Yep, it makes sense. I'm so used to the old way of working that I just have a hard time "adding another level" to it. This will be great once I get the hang of it though, as it will eliminate a lot of guesswork and botched prototypes.


Funny enough I am having a bit of a problem getting my head around it as well & I have been using it longer than you have :oops: :oops:
I actually went back to the old way of doing things to get some jobs completed & will come back to this once I have a bit more time, I have never had to rely on guesswork though & never had a botched job so maybe I was just lucky :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Olle » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:26 pm

martin54 wrote:
Olle wrote:Yep, it makes sense. I'm so used to the old way of working that I just have a hard time "adding another level" to it. This will be great once I get the hang of it though, as it will eliminate a lot of guesswork and botched prototypes.


Funny enough I am having a bit of a problem getting my head around it as well & I have been using it longer than you have :oops: :oops:
I actually went back to the old way of doing things to get some jobs completed & will come back to this once I have a bit more time, I have never had to rely on guesswork though & never had a botched job so maybe I was just lucky :lol: :lol: :lol:


I'm making gun grips ( https://www.thebunkermilitaria.com/coll ... colt-grips ), and the cuts on the back need to correlate 100% with the fronts to look and fit right. The fronts are usually funky compound curve surfaces with some of the back cuts coming through in certain places (and some that shouldn't come through), and the only way to determine that in single sided models is to pretty much try your way by making prototypes. Having a 2-sided model will cut down on my prototyping big time, so I'm really eager to get this going. I just generated a new type, and I can already see that the 2-sided simulation has saved me at least a full day of tedious prototyping. I have several old models that could use fine tuning, so I think I'm going to convert or copy them to 2-sided models. It's the cat's meow!

It's really not difficult, but you need to pay more attention as it's more or less like having two jobs open at the same time. The problem I have with it is that I keep forgetting which side I'm working on, so it happens that I work on something for a while, just to realize that I was doing it on the wrong side. Fortunately, there is a "move to other side" command. Would be even better if they would put a big, red banner on top, like "You are now working on the back, dummy!" :D

I'm still not friends with the simulation though. A 3D fine cut all the way through will leave a thin layer of material that obstructs the view from the back, which kinda defeats the purpose of a 2-sided simulation. I just create a "helper toolpath" with a large endmill that clears the area outside the work, but it would be neat if you could eliminate that thin "film" by setting the resolution or something. I just need to experiment a bit more with this, there could possibly be an easier way to do it.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby highpockets » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:23 pm

Olle,

Are you creating the grip models from scratch or are you buying the models and just trying to line them up?

Honestly I'm not sure I would use double sided machining for gun grips since they are different from left to right. Anyway that's you call.

As to what side you are working on, Vectric did put up a big "dummy your working on the back side" sign. Besides the material with an arrow on top or bottom icon at the top menu bar there's a big yellow border around the work area of the back/bottom side.

If you are using two models for the left/right (front/back) grip and are having trouble lining them up. Take one of the models and create a bounding vector and copy it to the other side. That should help.

As to the thin layer still showing, try raising the Preview Simulation Quality under the Toolpath menu option.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Olle » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:42 am

highpockets wrote:Olle,

Are you creating the grip models from scratch or are you buying the models and just trying to line them up?

Honestly I'm not sure I would use double sided machining for gun grips since they are different from left to right. Anyway that's you call.

As to what side you are working on, Vectric did put up a big "dummy your working on the back side" sign. Besides the material with an arrow on top or bottom icon at the top menu bar there's a big yellow border around the work area of the back/bottom side.

If you are using two models for the left/right (front/back) grip and are having trouble lining them up. Take one of the models and create a bounding vector and copy it to the other side. That should help.

As to the thin layer still showing, try raising the Preview Simulation Quality under the Toolpath menu option.

I laser scan original grips, and reverse engineer the backs to fit the gun. That part is not a problem, the tedious part is to make the front and the back blend into one, and to gauge the final thickness and appearance.

The panels are, of course, different from side to side, but the 2-sided job makes it possible to see how the back cuts line up with the front cut (ie front to back, not left to right). The easiest way to describe the problems I have been having is to think of an irregularly shaped object that you're trying to carve out from the inside in an irregular pattern, only cutting through in the right places and not cutting through where you shouldn't. If you look at the grips in the link I posted, you'll see what I'm talking about. In the past I have used outlines and other "helper vectors" like you describe, but it's still not the same as seeing it in one single simulation. I set them up in pairs and run the backs, then I flip them upside down and left to right (in other words I flip around an y-axis right between the blanks). Some cuts only leave a thin sliver of wood, so I have to index the machine very accurately and I also need very accurate models to work off of. Really, it's more like machining than wood carving.

I'll try the simulation quality next time I'm in the shop, but if it doesn't work I'll simply use the extra perimeter cut in the simulation.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Mike-S » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:36 am

the cuts on the back need to correlate 100% with the fronts to look and fit right.


The front and back line up. You need to copy the outline vector to the back of the material.
This is a composite of front/back. Edges and holes line up perfectly. Aspire 9 is pretty slick with the two sided models.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Olle » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:51 pm

Mike-S wrote:
the cuts on the back need to correlate 100% with the fronts to look and fit right.


The front and back line up. You need to copy the outline vector to the back of the material.
This is a composite of front/back. Edges and holes line up perfectly. Aspire 9 is pretty slick with the two sided models.

That picture shows the areas I'm talking about. At the two upper arrows, you have cuts in the back meeting and blending in with the 3D cut on the front. It's not so easy to get this perfect when working in two separate models, but the 2-sided simulation will show you how they line up. The sliver at the bottom arrow can also be tricky. Of course, it's easy to keep the inside cut within the outer perimeter, but you also need to get the outside curve right so you don't cut through when you're cutting the inside.

When working in two single sided models I have been doing exactly what you're talking about (simply copying vectors between the two models), but it still took an actual prototype to verify that I was on the mark. For example, it only takes a 5/1000" difference to make or break the transitions at the top (especially the one at the upper rear edge), and the 2-sided simulation will show you this.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Olle » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:10 pm

I just converted an old model to 2-sided, then I tried to add the back part. Importing the vectors is obviously easy, as you can cut and paste between the old and the new model. The toolpaths were a bit worse though, as I could only export and import one at a time. Is there a quicker way to do that?
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Adrian » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:12 pm

You can export all visible toolpaths in one go. Check all the ones you want to save and click the save toolpath icon with a lightbulb on it.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Olle » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:17 pm

Nevermind. I couldn't figure out how to select the toolpaths, but I just saw that you can select by making them visible and choosing the "save all visible toolpaths" command.
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Re: 2-sided work

Postby Olle » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:20 pm

So... I copied all the vectors, then imported the toolpaths. The toolpaths lost their association to the vectors when I did that, so is there any way to import vectors and toolpaths in one go? It would be great if you could simply import the whole model of the back, vectors, toolpaths and all.
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