Tool Database Format

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GF357
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

TReischl wrote:Well darn, if the format is not encrypted as you state, why is your developer having a difficult time? And if he is not having a difficult time then what is the issue?
I never said he was having issues with it. But if you must know, I asked him about adding it to his software, he's busy working on an update and would consider it for the next update if he had more information about the format they use. I volunteered to try and get said format since I'm the one asking for the addition of the feature. It's not encrypted, but it's also not a CSV, TSV, or something entirely readable in Notepad++. I asked for the format so I could possibly contribute to the process instead of barking at a developer demanding features.
TReischl wrote:BTW, that line about how doing this would be so beneficial to Vectric is very normal for someone wanting something,
Which line? I don't think I implied that it would be "so beneficial" to Vectric. On the contrary, I said it would benefit people with customized values in their tool database that wanted to use additional software.
TReischl wrote:Edit: Here is something you have NOT considered:
Let's say Vectric turns over the format to your developer. Then your developer mangles things, suddenly Vectric is getting complaints that there are problems with THEIR tool database. Yea, that actually happens. We see it here pretty much every week. Machine is fouled up? Nah, MUST be the software! Operator enters wrong data? MUST be the software! Nope, if it were me I would not turn over the format either.
I imagine they'd do the same thing when a plugin or gadget or other third party software causes an issue - tell you it's not their problem. Again, gadgets and plugins have far more interaction and risk of error than the act of simply being able to read (not write to, not modify, not move, not correct, not mangle, not fondle, not molest, not reorder, ONLY READ) the tool database.

I get it, you're opposed to the idea another program reading, and only reading the tool database. It's not the end of the world - I've already moved on, maybe you should to.

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dealguy11
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by dealguy11 »

We've pretty much beaten this to death so this will be my last post on this topic.

Leo has it right that this is Vectric's decision and all of us are just opining. None of us have the ability to provide you with what you want.

I will say this. My former career was as a contract negotiator for a huge technology company (that's the origin of my handle on this forum, by the way). The issue of intellectual property was one that was fiercely fought in every negotiation in which I was involved. I can't even begin to count the number of times a client's lawyer tried to tell me that the intellectual property we were bringing to the table was trivial - an obvious use of technology that everyone was using, so we should have no problem with allowing it to be freely copied by the client, or even given (or sold!) to others. Regardless of how "trivial" it might seem to the client, we couldn't and wouldn't allow that. We sued and won in situations where the client ignored the licensing clauses of the contract. Intellectual property, even when "trivial", is the lifeblood of technology companies. Again, I am not surprised at all that you didn't get a positive response on this. No matter how obvious it is that a tool database with particular fields needs to be in a CAM program, this particular version is their proprietary (and copyrightable) instantiation of that idea and they are completely in their rights not to share it if they choose not to.
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TReischl
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by TReischl »

DealGuy is precisely correct.

Sounds to me like the OP will need to pay the developer to figure out the database.
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns

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Adrian
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by Adrian »

TReischl wrote:DealGuy is precisely correct.

Sounds to me like the OP will need to pay the developer to figure out the database.
Problem with that, as I posted earlier but the OP chose to ignore. is the license agreement:

"(4.2) The Software shall not be reverse engineered, decompiled or reverse assembled."

To me "cracking" the database format falls under that.

GF357
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

Adrian wrote:but the OP chose to ignore. is the license agreement:

"(4.2) The Software shall not be reverse engineered, decompiled or reverse assembled."

To me "cracking" the database format falls under that.
Unfortunately that license doesn't get bundled with ANY of the database files freely distributed by a 3rd party, Amana Tool, nor is there any EULA to accept prior to receiving or downloading said files. So assuming your copyright/licensing agreement is valid with the vanilla database that gets bundled with the install of VCarve or Aspire, it's certainly not the case with what comes from a 3rd party.
dealguy11 wrote:... all of us are just opining. None of us have the ability to provide you with what you want.
That's all anyone had to write. Or, you know, write nothing, let the crickets answer. There's nothing wrong with not knowing the answer.
dealguy11 wrote:this particular version is their proprietary (and copyrightable) instantiation of that idea and they are completely in their rights not to share it if they choose not to.
There is no copyright expressed or implied in the files released and distributed by the third party.

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TReischl
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by TReischl »

Adrian wrote:
TReischl wrote:DealGuy is precisely correct.

Sounds to me like the OP will need to pay the developer to figure out the database.


Problem with that, as I posted earlier but the OP chose to ignore. is the license agreement:

"(4.2) The Software shall not be reverse engineered, decompiled or reverse assembled."

To me "cracking" the database format falls under that.


I guess I must be "old school". If I had requested Vectric to provide the format and they said "No." then I would take that as meaning they did not want anyone tinkering with their software and/or databases. I sure as heck would not follow up to that by going on their forum and asking their users to help me hack their database.
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns

GF357
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

TReischl wrote:I guess I must be "old school". If I had requested Vectric to provide the format and they said "No."
They didn't say no.

Their answer was, as I posted earlier, "At this time we do not have any information regarding the .tool format." While you take it as no, you can't touch our stuff or the stuff a 3rd party freely distributes with no restrictions, I saw it as the support department doesn't have the exact information as to the structure/format/validation/error checking process of the import and export function. There is a rather large difference between the two.

I asked a valid question here to see if a) anyone had dealt with the tool database previously b) someone with experience in databases similar to this had some insight. Again, if you don't know the answer you don't have to write anything.
TReischl wrote: I sure as heck would not follow up to that by going on their forum and asking their users to help me hack their database.
You've already established that you don't have a worthwhile or meaningful answer and that you don't know the difference between reading (and only reading) a file and hacking. I respectfully ask that you to stop attempting to antagonize or otherwise derail what could have been a polite discussion. Your lack of knowledge on this matter and negative opinion have been duly noted.

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TReischl
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by TReischl »

Oh my!
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by ger21 »

Unfortunately that license doesn't get bundled with ANY of the database files freely distributed by a 3rd party, Amana Tool, nor is there any EULA to accept prior to receiving or downloading said files. So assuming your copyright/licensing agreement is valid with the vanilla database that gets bundled with the install of VCarve or Aspire, it's certainly not the case with what comes from a 3rd party.
I would think that Amana is just manually adding the tools in Aspire, and exporting the database. I don't see why they would go through the trouble of creating a custom tool database application for what they're doing, which is quite basic.
Gerry - http://www.thecncwoodworker.com

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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

ger21 wrote:
Unfortunately that license doesn't get bundled with ANY of the database files freely distributed by a 3rd party, Amana Tool, nor is there any EULA to accept prior to receiving or downloading said files. So assuming your copyright/licensing agreement is valid with the vanilla database that gets bundled with the install of VCarve or Aspire, it's certainly not the case with what comes from a 3rd party.
I would think that Amana is just manually adding the tools in Aspire, and exporting the database. I don't see why they would go through the trouble of creating a custom tool database application for what they're doing, which is quite basic.
Which I totally understand. My comment about Amana distributing the tool database information in Vectric's format was directed at the person saying VCarve/Aspire's EULA prohibited reverse engineering of Vectric's software, but no such EULA appears with what Amana provides.

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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by ger21 »

What I'm saying is that Amana is not reverse engineering anything. What they're providing is no different from a .txt file.
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Adrian
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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by Adrian »

ger21 wrote:What I'm saying is that Amana is not reverse engineering anything. What they're providing is no different from a .txt file.
What he means is that Amana are providing files in .tool format (exported from the tool database) so if he reverse engineers those particular files he isn't breaking any license agreement as there isn't one with the downloaded files.

It's a fine line in my book and personally I wouldn't go down that route without Vectric saying it was ok but I can see the point he is making.

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Re: Tool Database Format

Post by moacg »

I realize this is an old post, but after reading through it, I opened one of the .vtdb with Notepad++ and the first characters were "SQLite format 3". I hadn't used SQLite before, but a quick google search for "SQLite" lead me to SQLiteStudio (https://sourceforge.net/projects/sqlitestudio.mirror/ ), which lets you open the .vtdb files much like you would open a Microsoft Access database.

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