Tool Database Format

This forum is for general discussion regarding VCarve Pro
GF357
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:54 pm
Model of CNC Machine: CNCRP PRO48X96

Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

Does anyone know what the format for the tool database is? Notepad++ doesn't know how to open it...

User avatar
dealguy11
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 2459
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:52 pm
Model of CNC Machine: Anderson Selexx 510
Location: Henryville, PA

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by dealguy11 »

Why do you need to open it? Most likely a proprietary data format...can't think of any reason why you would open it outside the program.
Steve Godding
Not all who wander (or wonder) are lost

GF357
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:54 pm
Model of CNC Machine: CNCRP PRO48X96

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

I'm trying to get another software developer to adopt Vectric's tool database format. Opening with notepad++ you can see most of the fields. It's not encrypted, I'm just trying to avoid reverse engineering it. Seeing as how Amana tool has file you can download for their individual bits to directly import the info into the database without running Vectric software I figured the file format was somewhat available.

User avatar
gkas
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:39 am
Model of CNC Machine: Aspire, Axiom AR8 Pro+, Axiom 4.2W Laser
Location: Southern California

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by gkas »

I assume that the database format is copyrighted. The tool formats most likely come from the tool database export function.

GF357
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:54 pm
Model of CNC Machine: CNCRP PRO48X96

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

Why would you assume the tool database format is copyrighted? A database of bits and their properties surely isn't a new idea or an original work.

User avatar
gkas
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 1450
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:39 am
Model of CNC Machine: Aspire, Axiom AR8 Pro+, Axiom 4.2W Laser
Location: Southern California

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by gkas »

GF357 wrote:Why would you assume the tool database format is copyrighted? A database of bits and their properties surely isn't a new idea or an original work.
A database of a certain type of data is certainly not copyrightable, in most cases. The specific implementation of the database is. I'm making the assumption since they have only import/export options in the program, and no definition of the db structure. I would certainly get written permission from Vectric before providing the means to access their proprietary files.

User avatar
Adrian
Vectric Archimage
Posts: 14503
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:19 pm
Model of CNC Machine: ShopBot PRS Alpha 96x48
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by Adrian »

GF357 wrote:I'm trying to get another software developer to adopt Vectric's tool database format. Opening with notepad++ you can see most of the fields. It's not encrypted, I'm just trying to avoid reverse engineering it. Seeing as how Amana tool has file you can download for their individual bits to directly import the info into the database without running Vectric software I figured the file format was somewhat available.
I expect what Amana did was to create the tool definition in the tool database and then use the Export function of the tool database to create a file that can be imported by anyone else. No knowledge of the format is required that way. Maybe that would be an option for you as well?

You really need to put your developer in touch with Vectric directly. This is primarily a user to user support forum and it's not likely that any of us will know the format as it's an unusual thing to be doing.

Also it's worth noting that the license has a section that expressly forbids reverse engineering.

GF357
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:54 pm
Model of CNC Machine: CNCRP PRO48X96

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

Adrian wrote:You really need to put your developer in touch with Vectric directly.
The developer is a one man operation, I'd rather he spend his time working on the actual software than playing email tag with Vectric or trying to figure out the format of a simple database.
Adrian wrote:This is primarily a user to user support forum and it's not likely that any of us will know the format as it's an unusual thing to be doing.
I asked here because the reply I got from Vectric was rather useless:
At this time we do not have any information regarding the .tool format. It is just used to store tool information when exported from our software.
I thought another piece of software being able to use the database would be helpful in a few different ways, the most obvious being the more programs that use Vectric's format, the closer it gets to becoming a de facto standard. It's also good for the people that have more than a single piece of software in their toolchain in that they can use one database of the tools they have. What attracted me to the software is it's superior handling of importing raster artwork - something VCarve does, but it's not VCarve's strongest feature. Instead of having to spend hours fixing pixelized blobs and hand editing nodes, it's pretty close to drag and drop. Then there's the different toolpath operations besides profiling, offsetting and rastering.

User avatar
dealguy11
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 2459
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:52 pm
Model of CNC Machine: Anderson Selexx 510
Location: Henryville, PA

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by dealguy11 »

I'm not really surprised Vectric is not forthcoming with this information. It's not unusual for software companies to consider the internals of their programs, including data layouts, to be proprietary and, yes, copyrighted. There are a lot of reasons for this involving issues around competitiveness and ownership of intellectual property, which are huge for software companies. It may seem like a good idea to you, but to a software company giving away anything outside the defined interfaces is an invitation for theft of intellectual property.

If you think about your situation a bit more, a tool database would mostly seem to be useful to some kind of CAM program (unless you're thinking of a tool inventory system or something like that). Why would Vectric want to help another CAM developer create competitive software?
Steve Godding
Not all who wander (or wonder) are lost

User avatar
TReischl
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 4567
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:04 pm
Model of CNC Machine: 8020 48X36X7 RP 2022 UCCNC Screenset
Location: Leland NC

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by TReischl »

So, let me see if I got this correct?

The OP asks Vectric for the format of their tool database and they decline to provide it:

"I asked here because the reply I got from Vectric was rather useless:
'At this time we do not have any information regarding the .tool format. It is just used to store tool information when exported from our software.'"


This is one of those things that users quite frequently misunderstand. Once Vectric supplies the format they have opened a door to supporting an outside software developer. That developer may have endless questions that consumes their resources, yes, answering questions takes time which is money. Often users think they know the direction a software company should travel based on their individual need. The customer is essentially looking at an elephant through a microscope. In the early days of software it was quite common for software developers to add every feature users suggested in the belief that it would further the use of the software. That is what we now call "software bloat". Things like this can easily lead to software bloat. The outside developer starts asking for more fields in the database because it suits his needs. It is a very slippery slope.
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns

User avatar
cghaly
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:51 pm
Model of CNC Machine: MultiCAM Classic
Location: Coppell, Texas

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by cghaly »

How about an option to import/export the tool database from/to a csv file? A universal and easily supportable option.

User avatar
Leo
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 4080
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:02 am
Model of CNC Machine: 1300 x 1300 x 254 Chinese Made
Location: East Freetown, Ma.
Contact:

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by Leo »

Your questions are being directed to USERS - NOT owners or employees of Vectric products.

This is as good as if I asked YOU - why don't we have FULL 3D rotary axis capability, or Why do we not have the option to drive our machine directly from Vectric. You don't know the answer - neither do we.

There is noone here that can answer your question as we are not employees of Vectric and have absolutely NO influence over the company other than making suggections to them, just like you can make.

Hello Mr. Vectric. Is it possible for you to make the tool database available to a 3rd party developer? THEY - answer no. OK - so it's no.

There is NOTHING that this user group can do about it.
Imagine the Possibilities of a Creative mind, combined with the functionality of CNC

GF357
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:54 pm
Model of CNC Machine: CNCRP PRO48X96

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by GF357 »

For all of those worried about Vectric's intellectual property or wasting time helping a developer compete... keep in mind that a tool database is something just about every CAD/CAM package has in common. Getting the format of how Vectric writes to their (unencrypted almost human readable) database isn't going to give an advantage to anyone else or take away Vectric's perceived advantage. If anything, it helps the end users, especially those with extensive tool libraries with customized feed and plunge rates. Also keep in mind there's far more interaction between Vectric's intellectual property and a gadget/plug-in than there is with the tool database.

But I get it, no one here knows, and most here think being able to use one tool database across multiple programs is a bad idea. My desire to save time by not manually transposing the information I've entered and modified from one program to another is rather selfish. Honestly, I'd prefer to use just one program, but VCarve/Aspire don't have some of the features I want/need. Instead of trying to force the software to cut a specific way by hand editing nodes, it's much more cost effective for me to use a different piece of software. Instead of editing G-code by hand, I'd rather a program or two keep track of the math.
dealguy11 wrote: to be proprietary and, yes, copyrighted. There are a lot of reasons for this involving issues around competitiveness and ownership of intellectual property, which are huge for software companies. It may seem like a good idea to you, but to a software company giving away anything outside the defined interfaces is an invitation for theft of intellectual property. If you think about your situation a bit more, a tool database would mostly seem to be useful to some kind of CAM program (unless you're thinking of a tool inventory system or something like that). Why would Vectric want to help another CAM developer create competitive software?
Roughly 15 fields of info per tool, of which none are directly related to Vectric's intellectual property. I'll concede the competitiveness as like I said, this program does raster conversion better (which isn't VCarve's main focus or feature) and also can generate novel toolpaths that Vectric likely won't include (trochoidal milling, stipple effect, etc). As for helping another developer... would providing the format (and nothing else) for the tool database (which all CAD/CAM software has a version of a tool database) give the other developer the edge? It's not related to any rendering, tool path generating, or any other tricks of the trade.
Leo wrote:Your questions are being directed to USERS - NOT owners or employees of Vectric products. This is as good as if I asked YOU - why don't we have FULL 3D rotary axis capability, or Why do we not have the option to drive our machine directly from Vectric. You don't know the answer - neither do we. There is noone here that can answer your question as we are not employees of Vectric and have absolutely NO influence over the company other than making suggections to them, just like you can make. Hello Mr. Vectric. Is it possible for you to make the tool database available to a 3rd party developer? THEY - answer no. OK - so it's no. There is NOTHING that this user group can do about it.
Thanks Leo, I know it's a forum for the users. If you don't know the answer, you don't have to write anything. Some of the other people here develop software and gadgets and plug-ins. Maybe they know.
cghaly wrote:How about an option to import/export the tool database from/to a csv file? A universal and easily supportable option.
This is a fair compromise, honestly.
TReischl wrote:This is one of those things that users quite frequently misunderstand. Once Vectric supplies the format they have opened a door to supporting an outside software developer. That developer may have endless questions that consumes their resources, yes, answering questions takes time which is money.
Releasing the format of the tool database is hardly supporting an outside developer. The format has already been released or reverse engineered by at least one vendor (Amana Tool).
TReischl wrote:Often users think they know the direction a software company should travel based on their individual need.
I'm not trying get Vectric to change directions - actually the opposite, trying to get another developer to use Vectric's non-standard unencrypted format.
TReischl wrote:The customer is essentially looking at an elephant through a microscope. In the early days of software it was quite common for software developers to add every feature users suggested in the belief that it would further the use of the software. That is what we now call "software bloat". Things like this can easily lead to software bloat. The outside developer starts asking for more fields in the database because it suits his needs. It is a very slippery slope.
I'm not asking Vectric to add anything, and the slippery slope of a developer asking for more fields in the description of an end mill aren't likely at all.

User avatar
TReischl
Vectric Wizard
Posts: 4567
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:04 pm
Model of CNC Machine: 8020 48X36X7 RP 2022 UCCNC Screenset
Location: Leland NC

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by TReischl »

Well darn, if the format is not encrypted as you state, why is your developer having a difficult time? And if he is not having a difficult time then what is the issue?

BTW, that line about how doing this would be so beneficial to Vectric is very normal for someone wanting something, they tell the other party how great it will be for them if they just do as requested. Of course, if it does not turn out great for them, oh well!!! When it comes to this sort of thing the guy who pays the bills makes the decisions and then lives with them. So far it seems that Vectric has been making a lot of good decisions.

Edit: Here is something you have NOT considered:

Let's say Vectric turns over the format to your developer. Then your developer mangles things, suddenly Vectric is getting complaints that there are problems with THEIR tool database. Yea, that actually happens. We see it here pretty much every week. Machine is fouled up? Nah, MUST be the software! Operator enters wrong data? MUST be the software! Nope, if it were me I would not turn over the format either.
"If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns

User avatar
Adrian
Vectric Archimage
Posts: 14503
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:19 pm
Model of CNC Machine: ShopBot PRS Alpha 96x48
Location: Surrey, UK

Re: Tool Database Format

Post by Adrian »

GF357 wrote: Releasing the format of the tool database is hardly supporting an outside developer. The format has already been released or reverse engineered by at least one vendor (Amana Tool).
As I said earlier what Amana has most likely done, as have others, is to export the definition from the tool database. That creates a .tool format file that can be imported into VCarve/Aspire. There is absolutely no need to reverse engineer or know anything about the file format to do that.

Post Reply