options to prevent operator error?

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Jacala
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options to prevent operator error?

Post by Jacala »

Hello!

I am a daily user of V carve pro and i am really happy with it. There are a few things that could improve the programming routine for me and I would like to know what you guys think of these points. Am I right or am I missing the point somewhere along the way?

One:
When starting a new operation, lets say a contour, pocket, fluting etc the last used tool and cutting depth is always used. I seldom use exactly the same tools one job after another and once in a while I forget to select the new tool or set the depth.

Shouldn't it be better to " demand" a tool selection or at least make this optional in the settings? (or did I overlook this function?)
In short: In stead of using the last settings keep the tool data (tool number an depth etc.) empty and just like the "no vector selected" popup get a "no tool selected" popup
Example: Cutting a 5 mm contour line with a negative cutter and a operation later 7 mm deep with a compression bit. Both are (in this case) 6 mm and is it easily overlooked when operating a ATC machine. I operate 2 ATC machines with 12 tools each so there are 24 tools in my library at all times.

Two:
I always use ramp plunge but it is not standard selected. I would love to have this option to be always "on" in stead of always " off".

Three:
Tool length / material thickness: When cutting 30 mm deep with a 20 mm tool you have a problem. I have used other CAM software and next to the diameter you also had to enter the maximal cutting depth, it would give a error when cutting to deep. I like the " WARNING - Tool will cut trough material" warning in V-carve and would greatly appreciate the " max cutting depth exceeded" warning.

When you can setup the workflow for toolpaths so that the relevant items are already selected it would help the workflow.

I am training new cnc operators at this moment and the face they same " problems" as me. V Carve pro is great but operating a CNC is not an easy task for a novice user. Preventing expensive mistakes is always a good thing.

Looking forward to your feedback.

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Adrian
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by Adrian »

To me it's all about developing a workflow with checks. The software shouldn't be doing that for you IMO as it just leads to bad habits.

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IslaWW
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by IslaWW »

"I am training new cnc operators at this moment and the face they same " problems" as me. V Carve pro is great but operating a CNC is not an easy task for a novice user. Preventing expensive mistakes is always a good thing."


I too train a couple hundred new users and around a dozen or so educators that will be developing a curriculum around Vectric products and the school's (usually recently acquired) CNC machine. One of the points that I mention, reinforce and then try to drive home on multiple (obviously) occasions is that each and every input box can affect the outcome of the project. Some of them to the point that total success or failure will be dependent on viable parameters. I explain that there is a "good news, bad news" aspect to many of the parameters of saved files are populated into a new file.

For yourself, I would suggest that you learn to make a conscious decision regarding EVERY parameter and then teach your students to follow down the same path. This does involve explaining what each of these parameters actually does, and how it may affect the cut, but in the long run the students are much better for it.
Gary Campbell
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Jacala
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Model of CNC Machine: 2040 atc with 12 tools

Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by Jacala »

Hello Adrian,

You are correct that checks are important but user friendly software that helps an operator is also important. Every user has his own needs and projects.

An example with a different software package:
When you are writing a document in word you also set up your headings, spacings, an font only once. Then you can save the preferred settings and use them on every document from now on. It saves time and prevents error. More important: it will take less work for different people in a company to make a paper with the same layout and looks. So the graphic designer makes one nice template for lets say quotations and the rest can use this template as a guideline.

Why is it so weird to prefer the ramp function to be always selected and when you do not need it turn it of? I need it 99% of the time so it would be more logical to have it on already.

Why is it weird to ask why there is a tool selected for me? It is almost always "the wrong tool" and I need to change it anyway.

When you compare it to lets say word again: It is like on every new page the font "times new roman" is selected and you have to select " Arial" manually every page.

I know that a lot of cnc operators do not agree with me but I am a stubborn guy ( :wink: ) and I always compare things from different point of views and work fields.

A check is useless if it is always in the "wrong" position of your daily workflow. The check should be there but it should be set up as convenient as possible for the daily tasks.

Any more opinions out there?

Jacala
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:35 pm
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by Jacala »

IslaWW wrote:"I am training new cnc operators at this moment and the face they same " problems" as me. V Carve pro is great but operating a CNC is not an easy task for a novice user. Preventing expensive mistakes is always a good thing."


I too train a couple hundred new users and around a dozen or so educators that will be developing a curriculum around Vectric products and the school's (usually recently acquired) CNC machine. One of the points that I mention, reinforce and then try to drive home on multiple (obviously) occasions is that each and every input box can affect the outcome of the project. Some of them to the point that total success or failure will be dependent on viable parameters. I explain that there is a "good news, bad news" aspect to many of the parameters of saved files are populated into a new file.

For yourself, I would suggest that you learn to make a conscious decision regarding EVERY parameter and then teach your students to follow down the same path. This does involve explaining what each of these parameters actually does, and how it may affect the cut, but in the long run the students are much better for it.

Hello IslaWW
Thanks for responding! Can you clarify this line: I explain that there is a "good news, bad news" aspect to many of the parameters of saved files are populated into a new file. maybe my English is lacking but i do not quite understand.

Thanks!

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jimwill2
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by jimwill2 »

"When you can setup the workflow for toolpaths so that the relevant items are already selected it would help the workflow."

In your first two examples you want Vcarve to not select the relevant items on one and select the relevant item on two. Vectric continues to improve their software by adding features, tools, tweaking and debugging. I'm sure each of us can find a couple of things we would change to suit our needs. When I am creating toolpaths I appreciate that the tool and settings are still there when I open it, I often use the same settings for similar toolpaths. However, I always look at each setting to make sure it fits what I'm doing. If I want to create toolpaths that have all the same settings I create toolpath templates, which is pretty much what you are doing in Word.

I am training new cnc operators at this moment and the face they same " problems" as me.

Of course they face the same problems as you... you are teaching them that they are problems! Gary is right on the mark... teach your students how every feature works and they will become proficient with the software as it is written.
Jim Williams

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Adrian
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by Adrian »

Jacala wrote: When you are writing a document in word you also set up your headings, spacings, an font only once. Then you can save the preferred settings and use them on every document from now on. It saves time and prevents error. More important: it will take less work for different people in a company to make a paper with the same layout and looks. So the graphic designer makes one nice template for lets say quotations and the rest can use this template as a guideline.
Which is exactly what I do for my work in Aspire and VCarve. The features are there to do that.

Jacala
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by Jacala »

I must say that you have good arguments. I will think about it and try to adjust my workflow a bit. See how it works.

Maybe im just overthinking it or stuck in the wrong approach at the moment. Thanks for functioning as a sparring partner!

tomgardiner
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by tomgardiner »

Adrian has described his use of toolpath templates a couple of times (or more) on the forum. His process makes the CAM side of things very efficient. I wish I could say that I have adopted his strategy but I can't afford the hour or two now to save the hours or days of labour in the future. :?

LittleGreyMan
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by LittleGreyMan »

Hi,

I'd sometimes prefer other defaults settings for some toolpath. But I don't really care about that. As Gary and Adrian mentioned before, you only have 2 possibilities:
-the toolpath you're working on is very specific. In this case, you'll have to check and set all parameters to ensure it performs right
-the toolpath is standard in your workflow and you can create a template for this case

Point 3 is not really an issue as when you enter a tool in the base, you set the default pass depth. It's true you can set a 5mm default cut depth and change it to 20mm in the toolpath settings with an actual 10mm length of cut tool. In this case, Vectric software doesn't throw any message as LOC is not managed.

I hope this parameter and collision detection will be managed in future releases. But always consider what Vectric software offers for the price.
Best regards

Didier

W7 - Aspire 8.517

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IslaWW
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Re: options to prevent operator error?

Post by IslaWW »

Jacala…
My "good news, bad news" comments are referring to the fact that the parameters in many cases are filled in for us from previous work. In some cases this is good, assuming they are appropriate, and in others they are not so good, when they turn out to have been not optimal. That is why the designer or operator must make choices that are relevant to the job at hand. Your comments above appear that you believe the software would be intuitive enough to populate or change these for you.

The operator is the only intelligent link in the CNC chain, success or failure depends 100% on the choices he/she makes. That intelligence cannot be replaced by either hardware or software.
Gary Campbell
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