VCarve inlays and flat depth

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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby Adrian » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:59 pm

The whole file would always be best as a lot more can be seen from that than from just photographs.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby SCG » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:33 pm

Dad Time-small cutting board.crv
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby SCG » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:34 pm

Thanks, I just uploaded the VCP file of the project that's had me stumped.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby FixitMike » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:29 pm

If you are running the flycut toolpath to level the surface, I hope you are using the flycut surface to set the Z0 for the pocket cut tools, and not the top of the original material. Otherwise, the pocket won't be cut deep enough because the toolpaths think there is .0156" more material.

Minor hint to slightly reduce the male inlay cutting time: Round off (fillet) the outside corners of the border so the VBit doesn't need to clear out material to make the corner sharp.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby gkas » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:39 pm

FixitMike wrote:If you are running the flycut toolpath to level the surface, I hope you are using the flycut surface to set the Z0 for the pocket cut tools, and not the top of the original material. Otherwise, the pocket won't be cut deep enough because the toolpaths think there is .0156" more material.


No problem... Pencil lines all over the spoil board. When they're gone... it's flat.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby FixitMike » Mon Oct 29, 2018 12:44 am

gkas wrote:No problem... Pencil lines all over the spoil board. When they're gone... it's flat.

I was referring to the toolpath labeled "flycut" in your file. It is apparently just for the inlay (a smaller area than your spoilboard), and I thought you were using it to level the top of the material (Not a bad idea.) before cutting the pocket.

When I have multiple toolpaths that are cut in different materials, I often will use the note feature (Edit--Notes) to describe which toolpaths are used where.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby LittleGreyMan » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:04 am

SCG,

This post may sound harsh, it's not the intent. I'm just trying to sort out thing to help.

There are 2 problems here:
-the inlay issue
-the project design

For checking the inlay method, just use some scrap material and a simple design: a few geometrical shapes (circle, square, star), not too small. Or some clean and simple vectorial clipart.

If you still have an issue, it will be much more easier to diagnose.

Make your project the size of your design, or a little bit more. It's not a main issue for 2D or 2,5D projects, but it will lead to resolution issues with 3D components and in the toolpath preview (for 2D and 3D).

Your project has a lot of issues:
-too large area (see the previous comment)
-lots of vector issues: on the Inlay layer, select the drawing. Right click: ungroup onto groups layer. Run the vector validator. 954 overlaps. 46 intersections. V-carve toolpath may calculate this vectors correctly or not, because it will have to interpret each of these issues. I'm not sure it will have the same behavior on the mirrored vectors (ie the pocket)
-the Virginia beach text seems slightly distorted. Is it intended? If not, you can easily have a better lettering. In any case, it can be improved. Select the G in node edit mode and see how many nodes it has. Handling a high nodes umber will slow down Vcarve and the machine. The less nodes you have, the better are the toolpath
-using layers for automatic vector selection in toolpaths will help organising your job
-etc

So using this project for inlays may result in various issues and it will be difficult to sort inlay process issues and project issues.

I suggest you try a very simple project for inlays in order to check the process and open a new thread to get specific help for this design.
Best regards

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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby adze_cnc » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:42 pm

LGM: there are very few overlaps and intersection problems...sort of... Most of what you are finding is that there are many duplicate vectors grouped together. The best is the set that is located on the "inlay" layer that is actually an overlapping group of vectors located on the "pocket" layer with no ungrouped vectors on the "inlay" layer---I didn't think that was possible.

It's always been my understanding of this v-inlay process that the <inlay start depth> + <inlay cut depth> was equal to the <pocket cut depth>. In the posted file's case it's greater. I can quite see why there would be problems mating the surfaces.

  1. stripped all duplicate vectors
  2. re-arranged vectors into proper layers
  3. re-cast toolpaths using what I think are valid depths based on the original file (I'd use 0.3 and 0.1 & 0.2 personally as I band-saw the glued pieces apart)
  4. removed the flycut toolpath. Why is it there?

All-in-all everything looks as I would expect it to.

time-vinlay.zip
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby FixitMike » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:25 am

adze_cnc wrote:It's always been my understanding of this v-inlay process that the <inlay start depth> + <inlay cut depth> was equal to the <pocket cut depth>.

That is not quite right. Here's my drawing that explains what the depths are and how they are related. Note that the inlay flat depth is the empty space between the pieces, it it actually can be any reasonable value. The inlay start depth determines how far the inlay sets into the pocket. The pocket flat depth minus the inlay start depth is the empty space under the inlay when it is in place (excess glue space).
VCarve Inlay.png
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby Mark's Wood Chips » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:10 pm

FixitMike wrote:
adze_cnc wrote:It's always been my understanding of this v-inlay process that the <inlay start depth> + <inlay cut depth> was equal to the <pocket cut depth>.

That is not quite right. Here's my drawing that explains what the depths are and how they are related. Note that the inlay flat depth is the empty space between the pieces, it it actually can be any reasonable value. The inlay start depth determines how far the inlay sets into the pocket. The pocket flat depth minus the inlay start depth is the empty space under the inlay when it is in place (excess glue space).
VCarve Inlay.png


Great picture that explains it all!

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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby LittleGreyMan » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:51 pm

Mark's Wood Chips wrote:[Great picture that explains it all!


Yes, Mike's picture sums up the whole process. I don't know if a picture is always worth a thousand words but no doubt this one is. Thanks again Mike.
Best regards

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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby Doug98105 » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:18 am

Being fairly new to Vectric (but not to CNC'ing) the Vcarve inlaying seems confusing. And, from what I've read Vectric Company doesn't seem to do much to clarify the issue.

My thought on how to do the inlaying is a bit different than anything I've read. First off I design my art work in CAD (not in Vectric). Layout the basic shape. Mirror it in CAD. Offset the mirrored shape so all around it's maybe .020"+ larger than the un-mirrored design.

Cut your pocket (flat depth) at whatever is appropriate, say .2". Now cut the inlay to the same .2" depth. Since the inlay is slightly larger it won't bottom out in the pocket, you'll have a glue gap.

As I say, I do the art work in another CAD program I'm much more comfortable with than Vectric, but Vectric has the offset function so it could be done there.

Does this make sense?
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby LittleGreyMan » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:26 am

Doug,

See first page of this thread.

This is a process using the Vcarve toolpath and not a feature provided by Vectric.

AFAIK, this method was first described by Paul Z then in American woodworking magazine (see links to these documents in first page). Mike's drawing is an excellent summary.

The pocket and the inlay are cut with mirrored vectors of the same size. The trick is using the slope to glue the parts.

If I believe this forum (and I do!) following the above mentioned documents worked for a very large majority of users.

But you may develop another method.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby Adrian » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:42 pm

As has been said there are many people producing inlays using the techniques covered in the original document and the videos that have been done since without any issues. I don't understand why a few can't seem to get it to work. All I can think is that there is some inaccuracy in the way their machines are calibrated etc.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby laflippin » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:52 pm

One problem for newbies to the Zank V-Inlay Procedure [Zank VIP] is the inconsistency in nomenclature that different users employ to describe their problems, triumphs, and discoveries iin the context of this method. Having slogged through most all 24 pages of OP Paul Zank's thread on this subject, including the white paper he wrote with Damien Durrant, I can attest to this issue personally. I also count myself as a newbie, but the end results are often so spectacular I've developed a real passion for Zank's procedure and that has helped me stay focused on it in the face of complex and sometimes confusing discussions.

One bit of nomenclature I have proposed, and do so again here, is that the specific name "Zank V-Inlay Procedure" be generally adopted in order to distinguish the inlay method we are all talking about from the Vectric inlay functionality, or any other possible method. As the veteran users of Zank's method will readily appreciate, it is a unique approach to inlay with CNC technology and it deserves a clear and compelling name so that we can all be on the same page when discussing this subject. There were some early attempts to formulate a new, descriptive name for Zank's discovery but the early suggestions either didn't completely gel in people's minds or (more likely) were not sufficiently differentiated from Vectric nomenclature to catch on. It is not up to Paul to name this method after himself---it is up to a community of grateful users to name it after him and, at that same time, clearly differentiate his method from other inlay techniques.


Another modest suggestion: In my ideal Zank VIP glossary, everyone discussing their problems, challenges, issues, discoveries, questions, etc. would always use the term "female" to describe the engraving that will be filled with an inlay, and "male" to describe the workpiece that will used to fill the female engraving. Sounds simple, and everyone beyond the age of puberty understands the difference between "female" and "male".... Contrast this to, say, calling the female engraving a "pocket", as many do in the various discussions: There is a pocket cut functionality in Vectric that has nothing to do with the female workpiece in Zank VIP and, to make matters more confusing, there is most definitely a role for the Vectric pocket cut function in preparation of the male workpiece for joining with the female.

This is just the start of a much longer rant-- it is really, really important to study and understand exactly how Vectric's Start Depth and Flat Depth parameters define the female and male parts of a Zank VIP project...unless you are a savant, it is trickier than might be expected at first blush. FixItMike's diagram is a very good starting place and a YouTube video by Shawn Gano is also pretty good, as it basically animates some of the features of FixItMike's diagram. Zank's original diagram in his white paper also illustrates the relationship of the original artwork to the female and male parts of the inlay, which is indispensable to understanding the procedures, IMHO.

Still, as a newbie, I often had trouble knowing where to focus my attention when examining single diagrams that illustrate a large number of concepts...found it very helpful to sit down with pencil and paper and just work through the construction of separate female and male diagrams and their relations to the artwork.

You obviously don't have to do any of this if you simply want to find a well-defined set of parameters and use them by rote. But, obviously, the Zank V-Inlay Procedure has captured the imaginations of a lot of talented people who feel the need to further study, understand, refine, and discuss its many interesting facets in great detail. In some ways it is a shame that the current "best" information is scattered higgledy-piggledy through the 24 page thread, and sometimes mixed in with equal parts of confusion, misinformation, and angst.
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