VCarve inlays and flat depth

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VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby edwardharp » Tue May 29, 2018 8:36 pm

I make a lot of inlays using VCarve in Aspire. I am constantly striving for more detail, overlapped colors, etc.

The one problem I have yet to solve is cutting the male or positive side and the use of flat depth to adjust the gap below the inlay. This of course causes a first cut depth of the flat depth and this proving problematic for more delicate detailed features.

I have been able to create decent inlays regardless of this but sometimes it takes several tries. I have never had the female side have a single issue. This I would think is because I have control over cut depths.

I have found several threads on various board talking about this issue, but I have yet to hear of a solution that actually works. Vectric could easily solve this of course by providing another VCarve parameter that represents a Z offset vs. hacking the flat depth. Or otherwise provide for stepping down to the "flat depth."

Has anyone addressed this successfully?

No, you cannot edit the passes for a VCarve operation. At least in the version of Aspire I use. No, you cannot provide an offset from vectors to somehow adjust where the V lands.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby Xett » Wed May 30, 2018 12:27 pm

Sing it. I've brought this up here (to much mockery and chagrin) and to vectric support directly (to dismissal as 'feature functioning as intended').

You can kinda-sorta fix it by setting up a completely separate pocketing toolpath with a heavy interior offset to clear the bulk of the material prior to the vCarving operations. But that's not a great solution.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby Adrian » Wed May 30, 2018 1:12 pm

The VCarve toolpath wasn't created to do inlays with at the end of the day. The inlay toolpath was.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby LittleGreyMan » Wed May 30, 2018 5:47 pm

Adrian wrote:The VCarve toolpath wasn't created to do inlays with at the end of the day. The inlay toolpath was.


+1

There is a technique using the V-Carve toolpath to create inlays, but it's a specific use of the toolpath, not its primary goal.

There was an article in American Woodworker August/ September 2011 named V-Carve Inlay which describes it. IIRC, you can download it for free.

I gave it once a try, it just works. Mike posted in one of your topics a very useful drawing which sums up the method with recommended cutting depth.

If you search the forum, you'll see very detailed jobs done with this method. So it does work.

See also this post from Paul Z and his pdf document:
http://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=7241&hilit=inlay

If you still have problems following these guidelines, inlays gurus will probably be able to help if you post a detailed description of your issue.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby adze_cnc » Wed May 30, 2018 6:12 pm

I wonder whether we are talking about:

1) VCarve the software package
2) V-Carve/Engraving Toolpath
3) VInlay technique http://www.vectric.com/support/training-material/bonus/vinlay.html

I agree with Adrian that "2" as a toolpath is not meant for inlays only by itself. But it can be used with the technique developed in "3" quite well. For some reason, people seem to have no end of problems with VInlays. I found that if you don't try to second guess the instructions then the VInlay technique is fairly fool-proof.

It's unfortunate that the software name and toolpath have similar names. This seems to cause no end of confusion.

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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby edwardharp » Wed May 30, 2018 6:28 pm

LittleGreyMan wrote:
Adrian wrote:The VCarve toolpath wasn't created to do inlays with at the end of the day. The inlay toolpath was.


+1

There is a technique using the V-Carve toolpath to create inlays, but it's a specific use of the toolpath, not its primary goal.

There was an article in American Woodworker August/ September 2011 named V-Carve Inlay which describes it. IIRC, you can download it for free.

I gave it once a try, it just works. Mike posted in one of your topics a very useful drawing which sums up the method with recommended cutting depth.

If you search the forum, you'll see very detailed jobs done with this method. So it does work.

See also this post from Paul Z and his pdf document:
http://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=7241&hilit=inlay

If you still have problems following these guidelines, inlays gurus will probably be able to help if you post a detailed description of your issue.


As I stated, I have created many, over 100, inlays using the technique. I understand it quite well.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby edwardharp » Wed May 30, 2018 6:29 pm

adze_cnc wrote:I wonder whether we are talking about:

1) VCarve the software package
2) V-Carve/Engraving Toolpath
3) VInlay technique http://www.vectric.com/support/training-material/bonus/vinlay.html

I agree with Adrian that "2" as a toolpath is not meant for inlays only by itself. But it can be used with the technique developed in "3" quite well. For some reason, people seem to have no end of problems with VInlays. I found that if you don't try to second guess the instructions then the VInlay technique is fairly fool-proof.

It's unfortunate that the software name and toolpath have similar names. This seems to cause no end of confusion.

Steven


I am not second guessing it. I am doing exactly what everyone else is. But it has issues as I stated in my initial post.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby edwardharp » Wed May 30, 2018 6:31 pm

Xett wrote:Sing it. I've brought this up here (to much mockery and chagrin) and to vectric support directly (to dismissal as 'feature functioning as intended').

You can kinda-sorta fix it by setting up a completely separate pocketing toolpath with a heavy interior offset to clear the bulk of the material prior to the vCarving operations. But that's not a great solution.


Incredible that everyone just assumes you do not know what you are doing.

I have found this with other issues, such as the fact that Aspire does not take V cutter tip width into account. Which is an issue when using VCarve operations on metal. But not related to this issue.

It would be a very simple thing for Vectric to solve in their software. That's the shame here.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby edwardharp » Wed May 30, 2018 6:43 pm

Here is an example of the sort of inlays I make and how complex and detailed they can be.

Image
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby adze_cnc » Wed May 30, 2018 6:44 pm

edwardharp wrote:As I stated, I have created many, over 100, inlays using the technique. I understand it quite well.


I personally don't doubt that but my question stands: when referring to "VCarve" in the following quote:

I make a lot of inlays using VCarve in Aspire.


What does the "VCarve" refer to: software name, toolpath name (V-Carve/Inlay), or as a synonym for the VInlay Technique?

If the VInlay technique then I wouldn't expect Vectric to add these changes you want as the V-Carve/Engraving Toolpath (VET) is being used in the VInlay for something that it was not created to do. The VET does what it was designed to do quite well---although I wish one could specify multiple tools to mill flats.

Sorry to harp on about this but if people don't fully know what you're referring to it's difficult to suggest solutions. A thread on another forum was doubly wrong talking about "rabbits" when they really wanted was a "dado" (not a "rebate" or "rabbet").
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby FixitMike » Wed May 30, 2018 7:49 pm

I would like to add to the discussion that I feel that the original VInlay document dimensions resulted in too much interior space between the male inlay and the female base. I believe the original called for an inlay start depth of .1" and a base flat depth of .2". I would recommend more like an inlay start depth of .15 if the base flat depth is .2". This results in a glue space of .05" rather than .1".
And here is my picture again in case anyone has missed it. :D
VCarve Inlay.png
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby edwardharp » Wed May 30, 2018 8:22 pm

adze_cnc wrote:
edwardharp wrote:As I stated, I have created many, over 100, inlays using the technique. I understand it quite well.


I personally don't doubt that but my question stands: when referring to "VCarve" in the following quote:

I make a lot of inlays using VCarve in Aspire.


What does the "VCarve" refer to: software name, toolpath name (V-Carve/Inlay), or as a synonym for the VInlay Technique?

If the VInlay technique then I wouldn't expect Vectric to add these changes you want as the V-Carve/Engraving Toolpath (VET) is being used in the VInlay for something that it was not created to do. The VET does what it was designed to do quite well---although I wish one could specify multiple tools to mill flats.

Sorry to harp on about this but if people don't fully know what you're referring to it's difficult to suggest solutions. A thread on another forum was doubly wrong talking about "rabbits" when they really wanted was a "dado" (not a "rebate" or "rabbet").


VCarve operations are exactly the same in the VCarve app or Aspire. There is no difference and I would assume no confusion.

Yes, there are inlay tool paths that have unwanted limitations. This is why I and many others use the VCarve technique.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby edwardharp » Wed May 30, 2018 8:28 pm

FixitMike wrote:I would like to add to the discussion that I feel that the original VInlay document dimensions resulted in too much interior space between the male inlay and the female base. I believe the original called for an inlay start depth of .1" and a base flat depth of .2". I would recommend more like an inlay start depth of .15 if the base flat depth is .2". This results in a glue space of .05" rather than .1".
And here is my picture again in case anyone has missed it. :D
VCarve Inlay.png


That makes sense, but wouldn't that make the initial pass that much deeper? 0.15? Since we are using start depth to hack this into working.

Or is the start depth the depth of the gap? So we would have a start depth of .05 and a flat depth of .15. Hm. This would actually help!

But no, that isn't the case. Argh.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby FixitMike » Wed May 30, 2018 10:59 pm

edwardharp wrote:
That makes sense, but wouldn't that make the initial pass that much deeper? 0.15? Since we are using start depth to hack this into working.

Or is the start depth the depth of the gap? So we would have a start depth of .05 and a flat depth of .15. Hm. This would actually help!

But no, that isn't the case. Argh.


The total maximum depth of the male inlay is start depth plus the flat depth. That shouldn't be a problem unless it is more than the cutting length of the V bit. Take another look at my picture to see how it all works.
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Re: VCarve inlays and flat depth

Postby edwardharp » Wed May 30, 2018 11:32 pm

FixitMike wrote:
edwardharp wrote:
That makes sense, but wouldn't that make the initial pass that much deeper? 0.15? Since we are using start depth to hack this into working.

Or is the start depth the depth of the gap? So we would have a start depth of .05 and a flat depth of .15. Hm. This would actually help!

But no, that isn't the case. Argh.


The total maximum depth of the male inlay is start depth plus the flat depth. That shouldn't be a problem unless it is more than the cutting length of the V bit. Take another look at my picture to see how it all works.


No, it is a problem. Hence this thread. When it gets down to finer details the deeper cutting depth results in chip out and that can result in missing tips for sharp features. This can be managed with shallower cutting depths, which we have no control over when we set a start depth.

It all depends on the size of the inlays, the grain of the wood, the species of the wood, etc. And the limitations of the machine for that matter. I use a CNC milling machine because I also do metal and other materials and there is a limit to how fast I can spin the V cutter.

My current favorite by the way for wood is the Amana Tool 45733.
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